Yin Therapy with Emrik Suichies

Yin Therapy with Emrik Suichies
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[00:00:00] Welcome to a Yin Yoga Podcast. I’m your host, Nic DeNoux, certified yoga therapist, mentor of yoga teachers, yin yoga teacher trainer, and total yin yoga geek. If you have a crush on yin yoga and are ready to dive deep, then you’re in the right place. Here, myself and my guests will discuss all things yin yoga, including anatomy, philosophy, traditional Chinese medicine, meditation, Taoism, teaching tips, and so much more.

You can expect these conversations to be long format, informal, lo-fi, and delightfully imperfect. So whether you are a yoga teacher or a yin yoga student, I [00:01:00] welcome you to the inside.

Welcome, Emerick, to a Yin Yoga podcast. Happy to be here. I’m excited for this conversation, and I don’t have these kind of conversations a lot where it’s what one of my friends and podcasters, Jay Brown, would call a wild card. Meaning we’re in the same group, the Yin, Yin Yoga Network group, shout out to that group.

Which by the way, some people think that’s not my group. I get people all the time thinking that’s my group. I’m like, “No, I am o- one of many admins that just helps out. But anyways, , I’ve seen your posts in there, and we’ve connected a bit through there. But we haven’t met before, and so this is what we call, , a wild card episode, where it’s like who knows where this conversation could go.

I’m looking forward to it. We do have a topic in mind, I just don’t have any specifics., Before we get into kind of yin therapy, which is what we’re gonna [00:02:00] chat about, I would love to hear a little bit about your journey. One thing I know for sure is that yoga teachers love hearing other yoga teachers’ yoga journey .

and you can do it brief, but, , from your first class to when you became a teacher, to then how you found yin, and then we’ll dive into the work that you’re doing now with yin therapy. If that works for you. , Yeah, that works for me. And then I think we have to go back a little while. , My yoga started I think 17 years ago.

17 years ago, , m- my wife said to me, “It should be very nice if we would do something together because you’re always doing things alone.” In, in the world of sport, I was doing a lot of things in the gym, in, in football and karate, and all that sort of things. And then she said, “It, it should be very good that we will do something together.”

And then she said to me, “Maybe [00:03:00] we should do something which is called yoga.” And then the first thing I thought was, “No. Not yoga.” That’s… I… And, and I said it to her, “No, this is not something for me.” So, and then she said to me, “Why not? Why not? There is also something in yoga which is more… Ah, you will sweat and that sort of thing.”

So then I said, “Okay. Then we will try it.” And, and I tried it. It was, we call it over here power yoga, a sort of Ashtanga yoga. And I was there with 15 ladies, and I was the only guy . And, and the teaching started with two hours of Po- Power Yoga. And then I was, everything in me was wet, I I couldn’t follow the ev- I thought, “This is crazy.

This is too much.” [00:04:00] So that was my start. And, , then I, finished in one year, and I thought I would teach, Power Yoga, , in our clinic. But then something very nice started because Katarina, my wife, she was sitting, and we were having a very small television with a video recorder in, and she put a video in, , of Paul Grilley.

It was 2010, I think. And he had a sort of yeah, a sort of introduction, , Yin Yoga. And of course, I already had some, , experience in osteopathy and in manual therapy and all that sort of thing, of fascia. And then she said, “This is very interesting. Maybe this is something also for you. It’s also yoga, Yin Yoga.”

And, and I was sitting on the ground and sitting on my knees and, and Paul was going into a saddle pose. So I said, , and Katarina was l- lying next to [00:05:00] me, and she was also in saddle pose, and I was trying to sit on my knees, but I couldn’t sit. It was tight , at the, my, not only my knees, but also my ankles.

So then I thought, “No, this is nothing for me. This is, this crazy. I I cannot do this.” And that was the start of the journey because after a few weeks I thought, “Why can’t I sit on my feet and on my knees? W- why, why aren’t my knees bending?” And then, , and then I went to the US to Paul Grilley in 2010 in Sequoyah, and I had the first two weeks, , course in, the Yin Yoga, and there, , everything changed for me.

This was really the change of my life for the second time. I wanna backtrack just a little [00:06:00] bit. So you said that you did some Power Yoga, … Did you take your teacher training for Power Yoga first? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Okay. And so you were kinda teaching that, and then you discovered Paul. I wanted to teach it.

I’ve given two classes, and then I stopped. Oh, okay. Okay. But I- Interesting … then I started with Yin Yoga. . And then- And so you went, you went to Sequoyah where … When … What year was that again? 20- 2010. My goodness, you and I were probably ships passing in the night in California because I was there for my first time right around the same time.

But yeah, what a magical place- Yeah … and experience that is, hey? Oh, it’s- Yeah … beautiful. I was, I was staying there and then also going to the forest, the big forest, and on the- Mm … on the mountain bike. The enchanted forest. Yes. Yeah. That’s where I went on my break every day too. Yeah. Other people would, like, go into town or, like, go hang out at the pool [00:07:00] and splash around and be noisy, and I was just like, “Get me to the forest.”

Yes. I need to be in the trees. Yeah. Such a… For anyone who doesn’t know, it’s a place in Sequoia, California, called Land of the Medicine Buddha, and it’s just off the back end of, like, a, a nature reserve. Yeah. , And it’s got huge redwoods. Like, it’s just such a magical place really. It was magical. And there the magic for me started.

And, we were… I think there were two other Dutch, , girls over there who are now also teachers, , in the Netherlands. One of them passed away two years ago, Anat.. Yes. And- Yeah, yeah … she was in the same group as where I was. But, , yeah, we had a very good time. And then the second, the second course, of course, I went not al- alone.

Then Catarina went with me, so we did the second part together. Nice. , And there yeah. A lot of anatomy, which, which Paul talked [00:08:00] about, was of course for me. Yeah, I, I have been studying anatomy for a long time in the physiotherapy and in the manual therapy. And so that was for me not new. But , the new thing which I discovered myself was that you could use your fascia in a different way.

And that was- This might be a good time to actually just, .. i will read your bio of course before we, before this, , recording, but this might be a good thing to just tease out a little bit, what were you doing before yoga? So you said manual therapy, physiotherapy. Yeah. Tell me just a little bit about how you got into that.

Yeah, I started as a physiotherapist in 1985 in a hospital. Wow. Yeah. So that’s a long time ago. And then, , I worked there for seven years. And after that, I started my own clinic, [00:09:00] and it grew. It was a big clinic afterwards. We worked with 20 people and GPs and everyone , was there. But , I, the, I needed to go somewhere else because it was very regular-

and I always felt in myself that there was more, more than the regular medicine. So I tried to find , some ways,, in feeling. And, and over here we call this haptonomi. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. I don’t think so. Haptotherapy. It’s about to listen to your feeling and to use your feeling in touching and in, in, , bringing in a sort of energy without knowing what, what you are doing.

So then this part where I started to notice that it’s not only evidence-based medicine, which I learned, but there’s something else. [00:10:00] But I couldn’t take it, I couldn’t touch it, I couldn’t- … understand it. And I’m very from a scientific background. My, my father was also a scientific,, chemist, and he always said, , if you cannot, , find some, , evidence about it, it doesn’t exist.”

Hmm. And okay, I thought, okay. But then I discovered that there is a lot of evidence which is not there yet. Yes. Yeah., I know what you mean , in a felt experience. When I was taking my Chinese medicine studies, we had, some qigong studies. And so it… We did some of the qigong shapes a little. But more than that, he was helping us work with our, with energetics.

So we did a lot of stuff on each other with people on a massage table. And I remember, , very clearly a point when I would start working with people where I would just get, , an intuitive hit, [00:11:00] as to , “Oh, go to that foot,” or, “Go to their hip,” or… And I, I didn’t know why. But I would just go with it because we were in this, creative, playful container of energy medicine.

And so I would just go for it. And almost inevitably the person then would after s- would after say, “How did you know about my left ankle or my right hip or…” And I would be like, “I don’t know. I don’t know how I knew. I, just…” If I can quiet my sort of over-analytical left brain and I can drop into that right brain, it’s like there, there just was like…

I don’t know if this will translate well, but, , a spidey sense we sometimes call it, as in, . did you ever watch Spider-Man? Okay. You know how he gets his little spidey senses? Yeah. Yeah. So that’s what I often will call them. That little kind of just intuitive hit that says, “You should go here,” or, “You should do this.”

, So yeah, I know what you mean about, like, you know- Yeah …, there’s of course the science and the anatomy and that, and then there’s what I often call the [00:12:00] magic, as well. Yeah. A- and what’s very important to say is that anatomy as we learn it still is not how it’s in our body working. And if you talk to Carlos Techo or if you talk to, a lot of people who are famous, they always will say, “Yes, this is what we know for now.”

It’s different., It’s something which we cannot measure because if we look into it, we just see with our eyes. And there is , a very big spectrum of frequencies which we cannot see, but it’s also there. Yes. , And that’s the part what was very interesting for me, and it was that our body is for 99.1% on molecular level water.

[00:13:00] So everything is water. And of course, people talk about their weight in, 60% of our body weight is water. Yes, that’s right. But in a cell, 99.1% is water. And water is carrying frequencies. And our connective tissue is, of course, a structured water. Like what Gerry Pollack… I don’t know if you know him, Gerry Pollack.

He’s a professor and he is doing a lot of research in structures water. But he, he also says that the water is, is a sort of consciousness. And fascia , is water so if talk with our fascia in a different way, then anatomy will be different too. And that’s the part where I was very interested.

So the last 10 years, I’ve been reading a lot [00:14:00] about this thing which we call water, and, and I’ve been reading and learning a lot about frequencies and how frequencies are, , bringing our connective tissue alive. Mm. Beautiful. Yes. The subtle things. You might, you may relate to this as well because you said, you have a science background, but I often joke that my brain is sort of split 50/50% is, like, facts, and then the other half is what I call the woo woo, right?

Like, all the things we can’t explain and, . And I will often joke that’s … It’s a confusing brain to have both of those feel equally weighted- Yeah … in my mind. Yeah., It’s a, it’s an interesting thing. There are times where I’ll hear people say things and my BS radar will come up and I’ll be like, “State your source.”

Mm. Like, “What, [00:15:00] where are you getting this from?” And then there’s other times where it’s like there are just things that you cannot explain. Not now at least we can’t explain it. , And I hope… I mean, even if you look , at fascia, for example, , it’s only been since, what, 2013, I think, was the first Fascia Research Congress.

So, like, this whole beautiful structure and web of magic in our bodies was being completely ignored until recently. Yeah. And look at how much they’ve learned from, say, then until now, and it’s such a ongoing study that what they might say five years from now might be different than what they said in 2013.

And so it really is… It’s beautiful and magical and also feels like it’s impossible to keep up with because it’s always changing. You’re like, “Wait, what? What now? What’s… What? What did we learn now?” So it’s a lot. It’s a lot. It’s a lot. Yeah. But it’s , the field of yin yoga is much more than [00:16:00] anatomy, it’s much more than meridians.

Yes. So much more, and that’s why I wanted to bring this to, to, , the scene which we call medicine. – Before we go there, I also- Yeah … wanna tease out, so you started doing yin yoga, and then you went and studied with Paul, and you did that twice in California? Yep. Yeah. Nice. Nice. . Twice, yes. . And it’s an interesting thing, I think, to go and do that training with your partner as well. Yeah. Yeah. How was it for her? .

And now is your partner also . Is she a yoga teacher as well? Yeah. , She was, , teaching yoga from her 18th. So she was really into yoga a lot, and she studied with Anode- Anodea Judith. She worked as a nurse in a hospital but , she quit there because, she was seeing too much and hearing too much.

And then she, , went into also a therapeutic, yeah, part of energy [00:17:00] medicine. Yeah. Interesting how you both have that sort of very traditional kind of medical system track, and then you both kind of- Yeah … flew away. Yeah. Flew away. , And I think we will com- we combine things, and that’s where, where you come to integrative medicine.

Is where we have to go together, and it’s not about this or that. It’s about finding a way to be together., Not only work together, but also be together. And that’s- that’s something I think which will happen soon because there are more and more doctors finding that we need each other.

Yeah. We need all the experience from each other. Yeah. I always think of it as like , a harmony, to have the two- Yeah … working together. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of competing against each other or just not understanding each other at all, which is also not helpful, yeah. True. Yeah. True. [00:18:00] So then h- tell me how…

So this is where the wild card part comes in, because of course I don’t have your book yet because it’s not it’s not in English yet, but it will be soon. So what lang- is it in Dutch? Yeah. I’ve written in Dutch, and I’ve worked for, I think, nine years on it. Wow. It took me a long time because I needed to read a lot of books, which I could use to bring in all the- That’s the research

yeah, it’s the research to bring in all that different views of people who think about medicine differently. And then, and then I had to combine it with the poses. So I took, , a lot of poses from the yin, and then see which pose is related to n- to not only the meridian, but also to the chakras, to the elements, to the colors, [00:19:00] to if you bring more repetitions, what will happen then?

If you do three repetitions, what will happen? If you use four repetitions, what will happen? If you use affirmations, which affirmations should you use so I had to bring in all the things, and I’ve written it down.

And then I, and then,, someone who I know also very long time, she read it and she said, “Emerick, this is shit. No one can read this. This is really a man’s work.”

This is… That’s hilarious. I said, “What?” I said, “No one- Emerick, that is a good friend. Yes. A good friend is brave enough to tell you the truth. Yeah. Yes. Her name is, Remy Joyce Leandra, and she, she rewrote it in, in- She went through and edit- edited it and made it less shit.

Yeah. Yeah. And then, I [00:20:00] think there were 540 pages, and it became 280 pages, so a lot went out. I think that this happens so m- so often with books is that people wanna put it all in one book when really it could be two or three books. That’s it. , Yeah. I know , Bernie Clark has mentioned , that his, you know- Yeah

his very first book was essentially he just took his forum on his website- Yeah … and, put it in a PDF and put it in a book, and so that it was huge. – Yeah … and so then when it, when a publisher came to him, they had to, like, “Okay, we, , we gotta pare this down a little bit.” Yeah. So good that you have a good friend that will, A, be honest with you, and then will also edit your book for you.

Yes, yes. She did a great job. So the Dutch version was out, November in 2024. And, the English version will come out, I think, this year because we have- Beautiful … it’s diff- difficult to… I, I thought first I will [00:21:00] translate it, but then- Mm … it’s a hell of a job. And it’s… Some words are very difficult to translate, so- Yes

someone helped me, and now it’s translated. So now it needs to get the new form, and then I think this year it will be ready. And we’ll have you back on when it’s live and I’ve had a chance to read it. , So I think this might be a really good time to talk about, , w- what are you’re defining as yin therapy?

Mm. Yeah. Maybe I… Maybe I’m I’m going to start with yin. I thought if yin will be the same as what we… how we use yin and yang, it will be very difficult i, what I did first was to translate yin in a sort of a different way, and I, I said yin needs to be your inner nature. Mm. I love that.[00:22:00]

Then everything fits in. Because then you go in, you go inside, you go within on a journey into your fascia, and you will find all sort of answers which are there, and you will even get more questions because the answers don’t fit. Mm. So then you can go in. And yin, for me, is the part where you don’t talk about, which is, for me, for example, which is the most difficult part to put into myself.

And,, if you go inside your body and it’s quiet and it’s still, that’s one part. But then the emptiness will come. . So if you come into that empty part, then you need to find a way [00:23:00] to refill it with something which is you. And , that’s the part where, , where I think the therapeutic thing is in yin yoga.

You have all the time to listen to your body, and you will go to some discomfort. It’s not like restorative yoga, . And then from that discomfort- You will surrender. . You will surrender to what is happening with you.

And,, I like the Yin Yoga so much because you have time. You have- … you have, you have time to stay into that pose. And if you know something about global scaling, I don’t think the word is familiar to a lot of people, but global scaling is about frequencies which are into frequencies. So it’s a scaling thing.

The most smallest part is the same as the biggest part if it has the same [00:24:00] frequency. So if you go deep inside, , you can find a way to change something, and then also change the, the outside. And , that’s starting at a moment which, which is six minutes. So if you stay in a pose for at least six minutes, then the biggest chance is there to change something.

And then the second part will be in two hours. So it’s a sort of a wave. And there’s a lot of evidence about it, and I can talk about it la- later, but not for now. Yeah. But silence is the best part to change something which you don’t have to change because you are different. So just to make sure I’m, I’m painting this picture correctly in my mind.

So, you know, you go into your yin, and you first you reach that kind of discomfort [00:25:00] phase, which we’re all very familiar with. But then that begins to fade into what you called empty. Yeah. And then you realize if you can go inward and not pull away from that, that actually empty is full.

Yeah. And that- That you can, that you can put, you can put these things, these healing things into that space. Yeah. I wonder your thoughts on… Because sometimes, so I’ve experienced this in meditation before. Most of the time when I sit in meditation, my mind just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah the whole time. But sometimes, just once in a while, I reach that space of, of of empty.

There isn’t the mindless chatter. I’m not aware of my breath even anymore. I’m just present. And I remember at least once [00:26:00] feeling like I was standing facing a bridge Where I could decide to keep going on the bridge, to just let that be , my state, right? Or I could pull back to, like, the busy brain. And it w- and I remember it being so clear that, like, oh, this is the first time I’ve noticed that I’m not thinking, planning, obsessing, and that I’ve n- I’ve noticed that I have a choice here.

I can keep going deeper or I can back off. And there, there was, I’m not gonna lie, like, a little fear there of,, that’s really unfamiliar, right? Letting myself just keep going. , Where am I gonna be? Am I gonna turn into a little pile of Jell-O on this cushion and, you know, not be myself anymore?

And so I think, I wonder, here’s , my thought that you sparked. I wonder sometimes if the… one of the reasons that people are so uncomfortable with still and quiet is because [00:27:00] they’re going to come to that empty space. And then what the heck does that mean? ‘Cause we’re so not used to it, you know? Yeah.

True. And then with meditation, the difficult part is to stay there, and you already said it. For a lot of people, it’s too difficult. . So what, what we want, I think you also as a yoga therapist is, you want to make it accessible for everyone. And if you want to bring it into a therapeutic part, then it needs to be accessible for even someone who has, yeah, call it fever.

Hmm. So if you’re in fever, then, then you are renewing because your body is renewing. And if you are renewing and you bring in new information and you are really getting through that phase, then you are [00:28:00] new. You’re not the old- Hmm … person anymore. And the same is, I think, with, with Yin Yoga. The only p- part is that if you do this once, if you go once in a pose,

then you miss a very important thing because everything in the universe is repetition. So I started with not doing a pose once, but twice or three times or four times. And would you do something else in between or just come out and rest and go back in? Yeah. Oh, interesting. And- I’ve never done that … and then started , to use the pause in between to make it shorter or longer, what happens- To which dimension do you go if you go the second time, and the third time, and the fourth time.

Hmm. And, and then I notice that if you want to have something which we call cure, at least you need three times. Hmm. One time, [00:29:00] nothing changes. Yes, of course something changes, but it’ll go back to the original. Yeah. But if you do this three times, the same pose, and a short period between it, then really something changes.

And it’s- So point of clarification. Exactly the same pose or, like, different poses for the same area of the body? No. Now you’re talking like if you’re doing dragonfly, you do it, you maybe pause, you go back, you do it again. Interesting. Yeah. I’m gonna have to play with that. Yeah. And dragonfly, you mention it, was for nine years my pose.

And it still is a little bit my pose because every day I use dragonfly in repeated sessions to go into my liver- … , and see what’s happening over there but of course, lots of other poses , which we can use to, to align something. And [00:30:00] it’s… it’s not about stretching. A lot of people think yin yoga is about stretching, and I always say, “Of course you can stretch something.”

But it’s about tuning into the field again. And finding the right spot where you can tune, and then go a little bit deeper or not. And then when you’re tuned and when you are, like, into the internet and, , the router is, , saying, “Yes, you’re in,”

then the magic happens. That’s very cool. I’m gonna, I will report back to you later, yin yogis, but I’m gonna try that. I wanna try that. , Do the pose, come out briefly, do it again. I’m gonna, I’m gonna explore that. See what that what that lands in my body. , Yeah. That’s very interesting. , And what kind of a effect do you think , that sort of do it, small pause, do it again, small pause, what kind of an effect do you think [00:31:00] that’s having on the actual physical tissues?

Oh, a lot. A lot. The physical tissues will not only relax, but will become more juicy. And the water will change a little bit more to what we really are, and that’s a field of plasma. Cool. And plasma is also water. It’s ionized water, of course. So the H2 molecules and the, oxygen molecules are more, , far from each other.

But if they come together, they create water in the forms we know. And, we know of course seven different forms of water. But there are more than 10 forms of water which you could describe. , But for me , it’s going into that plasma field, which is like a sort of an innernet., Not an internet, but an innernet.

An [00:32:00] innernet. Innernet. I love it. Yeah. I love that. Innernet. Innernet, as in inside. An inside net. Very cool. Then a lot of things we talked about before this podcast about agility learning, about that, that you can learn in a very different way. And w- I used to learn from a book, and then I had my book and I read it and tried to remem- remember it.

That’s not of this time. Your telephone knows everything. How does your telephone know everything? Because it’s tuned into the field, into the cloud, and then everything is there. Mm. Like ChatGPT. We can do the same, but we need to be tuned to that field. We need to tune into our innernet. Yes. I love that.

And then this Yin Yoga is, for me, it’s… It’s the most, ah, [00:33:00] magic way to do this. So are you still working with people, like doing physio, doing body work as well as Yin? Or are you mostly Yin now? I mostly teach. I teach all over the world. I teach a lot in, in the Netherlands. But I wanna teach more abroad.

Did you hear that, everyone? He’s available for hire. Yes. If you wanna bring him into your studio. Yeah. That’s, that’s what I want. I wanna teach this, this part of Yin Yoga everywhere so we can go together to the next level. That we can bring in Yin to what’s it supposed to be. And that’s, and that’s a part of medicine.

What was your question? I forgot. Oh just, just are you doing any kind of like formalized- like your physio or your body work or anything? Or are you mostly you’d let that go and now you’re just teaching? Yeah. I did this for [00:34:00] 41 years, and then- You look young, my friend

I’m like, how in the world could you have done that for 41 years? Okay. Yeah,, because I think you also know the secret. The biggest secret is that you need to do something which is you. And, then every year you will become a year younger. I love it. I love it. Yes. , It’s over.

So now you… And, and you’re living… You’re not in the Netherlands anymore, you’re living now in, in Hungary. Yeah, partly in the Netherlands, and I’m teaching over there. But we are now for the long time in Hungary because we are making a sort of a school over here for small groups. Cool. To teach international groups small courses Yin medicine and that sort of things the master.

So small courses where people can really go deep and- Yeah … and dive into it. Oh, lovely. So I’m not [00:35:00] super familiar with Europe’s geography. Like, how lo- so are you kinda living in Hungary and then just going to the Netherlands when you have, a course or a training? Okay. Yeah, and of course our kids are living there.

We have six children. Ah. So- Six children? Six. Yes. Ah. Yeah, yeah. The oldest one- So you always have somewhere to stay. Yeah, we can always… Yeah they are all across the country, so that’s no problem. But teaching there is what I like. And then in Hungary, I’m here , with Katrina, and we are making our living over here, and enjoying the sun, enjoying our dogs.

Beautiful. Yeah. And how do you think… How do you think that people find you? , Obviously- Yeah … this… obviously things like this, podcast interviews. But, you’re teaching and you’re wanting to build this center in Hungary.

. How do, how have you found that people find you?[00:36:00]

In the Netherlands it’s not a problem. People find me, so I- ‘Cause you have a reputation there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. , And we’ve been teaching more than thousands students over there. International it will be a challenge of course, because I’m not well-known yet. Mm. But I think… I don’t have to go everywhere directly, but if I start somewhere- Ah.

It’ll grow , maybe I go to Canada or I will go to the US and do a course over there, then people will find me. Yeah. And of course, if it’s there and you read it, I’m sure a lot of people will l- want to know more. Yes. Yeah. The book will definitely having it in English will help. Yeah … and then even things, of course, like this episode, like there’s gonna be yin yogis and people that own studios, you know, listening to this and going, “Huh, I need to know more about this.”

So you’re teaching formalized yin teacher [00:37:00] trainings in the Netherlands? Yeah. Yeah. We started just formalized yin yoga teacher trainings, and then it changed. Then we created yin basics. Or inner nature basics, and it was already packed with a lot of medicine things in it and things from the osteopathy, things from craniosacral.

So n- not the part where you have to study for seven years, but the parts which you can use directly into your yin class. And then yeah, and then it grew , and I’m still creating a lot of courses over here. So a lot of people come back again and again. And then suddenly there was a bachelor yin therapy over here because we had l- created so much courses that we could create a bachelor.

Yeah. And, and it- That’s amazing. Okay, tell me more about that. Yeah. , I always said if you talk [00:38:00] about integrative medicine, then you talk about yin therapy, because that’s integrative medicine. And then I put in all the parts from DNA till whatever, and it… And we made a sort of, Yeah, over here you say , if you have a year with 60 ECTS points, and if that’s the program, then then you can go up to a bachelor because a bachelor is 240 ECTS points.

Hmm. And of course, with yoga you talk about hours. I was just gonna say, what’s a point compared to an hour? Yeah. And a point is 28 hours. Okay. Okay. So we created a course over here of 120 ECTS points in medicine, in yin therapy. Now I’m trying to do the math as to how many hours that is in my head. It’s a lot.

It’s a lot. And, and don’t quote me on it, but it’s a lot. It’s a [00:39:00] lot. Yeah. And, and of course you need to think about that all the practice which you use to make it your own is also in there. Mm. So it’s not doing a course, it’s also creating your own thing. So we created it like you call it a curriculum- and was granted by a big organization who said, “Yes, you ha- you have put in everything and all the roles, the CANMET, CANMET roles.” It’s from Canada. Beautiful. And it’s created like it should be. So , we honor this course as an official yin therapist course in the Ne- I think that more and more people who train teachers really should look into this.

Because- Yeah . As yoga professionals, we spend thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars [00:40:00] over the course of time on our training, and yet still end up with a, if you follow Yoga Alliance, which I don’t, but if you are playing that game, , you end up with, a 500-hour.

Or even if you go into the Am- I know it’s probably different in Europe, but, the American version of yoga therapy, , you’re studying, 800 hours in addition to your original 200. But you’re not getting… There is one place in the States where you can get a master’s in yoga therapy, which is amazing, but that’s, , one place, you know?

And so I wish that more schools would do that, you know? Next year we have a master in the English version, and you can do a master at our place. Mm. Tempting. Very tempting. Yeah.. I know that the yoga therapy college that I went to did actually jump through all of the hoops fr- with the government to be considered, a registered educational thing.

And so you can actually, like, even use [00:41:00] student loans to go there. And of course, of c- I’m sure it required paperwork and curric- like, I’m sure there was lots of, like, red tape and annoying parts to it, but once you have it, it’s it just adds,, an extra level of a, I think of just honoring the work.

, That’s what I said, too. When the insurance said, “Okay, now we pay all the yin therapists in the Netherlands because they are registered,” , it’s like it should be, then it’s a sort of an honor on your work., And over here. It’s working. Wow In the Netherlands, if somebody does their degree essentially with you- they can now work in, a multidisciplinary clinic in, like, an integrative medicine place, and the insurance will actually cover. That is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Even though… So in, in North America, and especially in the States, there’s always a lot of talk about becoming licensed. , People think if we just let our profession be licensed, that’s [00:42:00] gonna fix all of our problems.

That’s gonna mean that insurance will start covering our services, and blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada. I d- I don’t personally buy into that. I think that might actually… becoming licensed in that way might actually cause us more grief than we want. But the way that you’re doing this, that sounds very intriguing.

And of course it’s different in, different parts of the world, but- Yeah, but it’s- … that’s very interesting … it’s very important what you say. It’s not about getting licensed to get a sort of money from the insurance because it… that was n- never my goal. It was more because the insurance doesn’t pay what it needs to pay.

I think always , what people need to pay is what you are worth. And if you say , this is what you have to pay if you come to me, and I will work with you as a yin therapist, and I will give [00:43:00] some cues, and I will bring you to the next level. But it’s your party. It’s your road to walk and to heal yourself,” then the money which comes needs to come from that person.

And of course, if pe- persons don’t have a lot of money, then it’s usually a problem, and then the insurance can help. But it’s not- … it’s not the different parts that, that you must be happy if, if you are seen by the insurance companies because you also need to- Yes … put everything in line like they want.

Yes. Well, for those of you just listening and can’t see the hands that came up, it was like creating, like, this narrow little space that you need to fit into. And that’s actually always my concern with licensure is that actually I don’t do a lot of one-on work, one-on-one work with people. But you know, if we became licensed, especially in the province I live in, which, man, there’s some government overreach in this province.

Woo. But if we did that [00:44:00] here, well, now the government is deciding what my hourly rate is. The government is deciding how much a, a yoga professional can charge regardless of their experience. I’m like well, I don’t know why people want that. But I think that it… sometimes people think that- If you become licensed as a yoga professional that that then equals abundance.

Mm. Or more opportunities or… And, and I just, I don’t think it does. Yeah. Because I have lots of friends that are in licensed professions, and they still have to work, and they still have to hustle, and they still have to, like, you know, bring in clients. And, like, it’s, it’s not, it’s not a magic fix. No. No. I agree with that.

But it’s, what you said, it’s a sort of an honor that you are seen on the same level as a physiotherapist, as a GP, as a… That you’re on the same level. And that’s, that’s… Then you can talk to each other. And, and and that’s very important. And of course you [00:45:00] can also talk if you’re not licensed to someone from, from a medical profession.

But usually they say, “Well, you don’t have a license, so I don’t wanna talk with you.” Yeah. Mm. A bachelor’s in y- in yin therapy. I love that idea. Yeah. So those of you- Well, I- … that are in Europe, get on that. Get, try, try that out. I wanna know more. Yeah, I mean, wow, that’s really, really cool. And, and how long has it been since that kind of got the final official check mark of like, yes, now you’re considered like a college essentially to give a bachelor’s degree?

Two years ago. Wow. Two- Good for you … yeah, two years ago. And- I imagine that was a lot of work. Yeah, it was too much. Yeah. Yeah, well, anytime you’re dealing with, like, red tape and bureaucracy- Yeah … and, oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah. I had to write the curriculum to all the roles, the candidate [00:46:00] roles, but also the, the roles w- which are applied here in the Netherlands- Mm

for a bachelor. And everything needed to be fitting into yin therapy. So that’s, that was a hell of a job. I bet. Yeah. I bet. But when it was finished, I said, “I will do this once and never again.” Yeah. Yeah. Now it’s ready. Yeah. Now it’s done. Now we can teach. And there might, I mean, I guess there might be updates over time here and there, but, like, the f- the framework is, like, finished.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And the most, and the most imp- What a cool opportunity … and the most important part maybe to, to talk about later is…

Don’t know the word in English, but I usually say when you are taking lessons at, at our school, you don’t have to remember anything. [00:47:00] So that’s the first part. Let’s talk about that now. You said we can talk about it later. Let’s just talk about it right now. Because if you want to remember what I said or what, what is in a, for example, a syllabus- Mm-hmm

then, then you don’t… You miss the part where we were talking about tuning into the field and knowing when you need to know it. Hmm. So it’s, it’s more about, it’s more about experience-based learning. Oh, brilliant. The experience will bring you into a part, and then of course there is a lot to read or we have also videos and webinars, and I, I created all the stuff.

And then you can see it again and see it again and listen again, and then think, “Ah, I don’t understand,” and listen again. And then some, “Yes, I [00:48:00] know.” “Now I know. I understand.” And that’s wh- that’s the new learning. Because if you want to have knowledge, you put in a question in ChatGPT or Perplexity or Claude, whatever, and that’s, that’s a different part.

This is about remembering in a different way. So in our school, you don’t have to remember anything. It’s like an embodied remembering, as opposed to a memorizing- Yes … with your head. Yeah. And a lot of people who start, who listen to this, they directly change their nervous system, but because they think, “I don’t have to remember it.

Okay. I just sit and listen and taste it and take it and ask a question and ask a question [00:49:00] again, and then think, ‘I still don’t know.’ Okay, no problem. I don’t know it either, but I will tell you again.” Then it will change. And then that’s a different type of learning. Yeah. I would say because I’m I’m neurodiverse that is 90% of the time how I’ve always had to approach learning, that whatever I hear and feel and see in this moment will land…

Whatever I need or am ready for will land, and the rest may not, but that it might later or I can come back to it. And I think that’s… i’m saying it’s because I’m neurodiverse, but I actually think that all humans learn that way. Yeah. That’s one of the things I loved about Paul’s training is, , at the beginning he really emphasis, emphasizes, sorry, not interrupting the lecture to ask questions.

Right? That there is a time for being open and receiving the information, and there’s a time for [00:50:00] studying the information, and then there’s a time for Q&A, and that he also repeats everything. Because- Yeah … the fact that our schools expect us to hear something once and remember it is madness. Yeah. That’s complete madness.

It is. That’s not how we as human creatures learn. Our institutions have tried to make that the way we learn, but that’s not learning. . And unfortunately- That’s, that- … that’s the way that many of us learn.

That’s, the, very unfortunately, because you don’t learn anything. You- Exactly … you try to remember it, but it doesn’t fit. Yeah. And it’s about repetition.

,. And then you forget it again. Yeah. Because , it’s not there.

It does- And if you’re trying to bring in information without meaning, it won’t stick. It won’t stick. Yeah. No. Yeah. That’s rote memorizing,

yeah. Because it’s always there, but you can make the connection with that [00:51:00] part and it’s there. Yeah. Directly. And it needs to be gone if you go to another level, because if it stays there, it’s… it too much. Yes. So let it go away. And that’s- Yes … that’s how our body works. Also, if you go, for example, I did a course two years in how to use DNA and how to look at DNA and , to turn it on and turn it off.

Cool. And it was a smart DNA professional, so you needed to learn all the SNPs and all the sorts of DNA which we have, and then see which SNPs can you turn off. So, we call it methylation. And which can you turn on and which, which things you needed and then I learned, of course, a lot of things, but I also learned it’s not that you need to understand how it’s called.

You need to know [00:52:00] how could I… , how do I close that DNA which brings in a lot of information which I don’t want. Mm. So if I turn it off, it’s not there. Of course, it’s there in the cloud, but it’s not in me, and so it will not do something which I don’t want. And if you look on PubMed, you know PubMed I think.

Yeah, PubMed, yep. It’s all about methylation. Every- a lot of things about methylation. So you need to met- methylate, people say. And with Yin- You can methylate. You can bring in, you can close some doors Can you define the word methylate just briefly- Yeah … for people that are like, “What? What’s he saying?”

Yeah. Methylate is bringing in a methyl. W- we call it methyl. M- I don’t know how in English how you call it. Methyl group. [00:53:00] Metal group. Yeah, no, metal group is wrong word. But it’s CH3 carbon and water stuff. W- and that, that part will fit into the DNA, and it will close the structure of DNA.

Okay. So , your DNA cannot be read, and it cannot do anything. And you… A lot of people have their DNA open, and it’s been read, and the people… And then the body will do something with it, but you don’t want it. . Because , it’s not what you want. So you need to close a lot of DNA. A lot of people need to close a lot of DNA.

And then then it will be more quiet. You will be more relaxed. And yeah, I always say you will become every year a little bit younger instead of older. And that’s , that’s something which a lot of people w- want nowadays, to be [00:54:00] more quiet- … in their head and not, not a lot of noise there.

Yes, definitely. And the noisier and the noisier our world gets, the more we need to reclaim that. Yeah. And it will be a very big problem because our environment will be more and more with information and with frequencies which are very high. So , they carry a lot of information in a very short time, , and you could say, “I don’t wanna live there.”

Yeah. It’s, that’s something which we do. We go to Hungary, and it’s not over here where we live. But if I’m going back and I’m in Amsterdam or I’m in Sneek, then it’s there. So I need to adapt. And I think- Also, not everybody can move. You know? .. Yeah. So we need to adapt. Yes. We need to adapt.

Yeah. And I think- It’s fascinating … it’s possible. Yes. It sounds to me like you have a ginormous [00:55:00] appetite for learning new information. Yes. Yes., I can see that. Yes. That is so cool. , Now that I just said , that you have a ginormous appetite for learning, what are you studying right now?

I’m studying with a person who is called a neurosurgeon. Cool. . . , He is learning me a lot about light, the spectrum of light how in the , mitochondrion light is created trans- his name is Jack Kruse.

And he is learning me how we are beings of light and how we transform light in our mitochondrion into water, for example. Cool. So we make our own water. [00:56:00] And this part where I started, I wanted to know everything about water because we are human beings of water and light.

So the light is turning switches on and off because the spectrum of light which we can see is about red light, UV lights, and the far-red light range is doing a lot of good work in our body, and so we need a lot of sunlight. But also light is filled with magnetism. And that’s part where I’m studying in now.

How can we use light as an electric part and as a magnetism part in yin yoga, and what can we use from it? How can we use that information to, to make yin therapy even more filled with magic? One thing that . has really struck me [00:57:00] from meeting you and from our conversation that I- I really admire and quite love is that you take all of this information that to other people might seem disconnected, and you’re always bringing it back to, “Okay, now that I know this, how can we bring this back into yin therapy?”

Yeah. So you’re going into all of these different areas, but then you’re collecting it all in the same pool, I might say, using the water analogy, of this yin therapy. Yeah. And I think that is fascinating. And keeping it very simple so you don’t have to learn what Jack Kruse is telling. Because if you are reading his papers- You get lost because it’s so much information.

I’ve got a friend who is an orthopedic surgeon, and he is that same age as me, and he is, he’s also listening to his podcast. And then he’s talking about the numbers and all the things, and then I say, “Reiner, it’s too much. It’s too much. [00:58:00] Needs to be- … it needs to be more close to the… Everyone needs to understand it.”

Little byte-sized amounts. Yes. Yeah. Plus you don’t have to know all the difficult parts. You need to know, how can I make it practical? Yes. How can I bring it back to one pose, dragonfly, and then go into the field and know which affirmation I use, how much times I need to repeat it, which pause, and then feel it and experience it myself.

That’s what it’s about. It’s like taking all of that information and then you’re distilling the essence of it. That’s it. And that’s what you’re… The essence is what you’re bringing to the yin therapy, and then you’re saying, “Okay, so here’s the essence of it. Now practice , and see.” Yeah. That’s it.

Beautiful. How fascinating. I often say that to my teacher [00:59:00] trainees too. It’s ’cause I do go into some, Daoist, Chinese medicine philosophy and things like that in my course. But I also, I leave a lot out because it’s not relevant for them. You know? It’s like you’re not an acupuncturist.

So I’m gonna give you, as a yoga professional, what’s helpful to know, what’s useful, what you can bring into your classes and your own practice and with your students. And I’m going to leave the rest over here because it’s not… I mean, it might be a fun mind tickle, but if you’re not actually gonna be able to use it…

You know, there’s that saying out there, and Paul really knows this, that’s why he teaches the way he does, that the overwhelmed mind says no. So as soon as your mind is, full and, , not computing, it just pushes everything else. It pushes it all away. Whereas if you can really focus on, , y- what you’ve been doing, distilling these things into, okay, I’ve taken all this information, and I’ve filtered it in, [01:00:00] and I’ve sat with it.

And,, now what is the part that is,, the useful sort of essence? And then that’s what we’ll talk about. So having it, an ability to do that as a person, as a human yourself, to d- take it all and then distill it, , that’s a real gift. Yeah, and I think , it’s a gift, but it’s also a sort of a purpose- Yeah

that I now need to bring it also into the world. I brought it in the Netherlands. There are a lot of people who are already following , the classes over here, teacher classes. So I teach the trainers to, to bring it to their students again. But now I think it’s time to go into the world and to teach, like you, like a lot of people who are…

w- who want to go to the next level- Yeah … also with yin and, and with yoga therapy. And, and when I can bring in a part. Not everything, but a part. It’s just a part. Are you, are you teaching only, like, live or do you have [01:01:00] some of your courses online as well? I’ve got some courses online in in the Dutch language, and I will provide some English courses.

So I’m now in Hungary, and then, So I thought maybe this part will be very nice to make a sort of an e- English webinar and take people on a journey, first journey. Mm. Talk about it, and then see what… So I can send it to you if it’s ready. Yes. And then maybe you can share it with everyone for free. Yeah.

People. That’d be great. Yeah. Yeah. That’d be really cool. Yeah. Oh, very cool. So you’re doing in-person and you’re working on creating stuff online that is also in English.

We’ll slowly start to round this out.

And I have some questions that I like to ask people. These are supposed to be rapid-fire, but they rarely are. And some are light and some are a little more deep. So we’ll see, see what kind of answers we can get. I already know the answer to this first one, but it was [01:02:00] off recording, so someone… you can answer for everyone else.

Coffee or tea? Coffee. I knew that because for those of you who missed that part at the beginning because we weren’t recording whenever I have my European friends on, they’re always in the evening when I’m recording, and I’m during the day. And so he said, “I have coffee,” to keep a- keep him awake and alert- Yeah

While he did the interview. What’s your favorite ice cream flavor? . Lemon. Yeah, nice. Yeah. One thing that people often get wrong about me?

I’m very sweet. Oh. They think you’re sweet and you’re not? I’m not, no. I’m… Of course I’m sweet to, to a lot of persons, but not to myself. Mm. Gotcha.

When I’m not practicing yin yoga, I am… [01:03:00] Walking with our two dogs, Polish Tatra dogs, and walking a lot in nature. Beautiful. That’s medicine. That’s medicine. That’s the basic- Walking in nature. Yeah. Super important. One weird fact

about you.

I don’t want to know.

Hmm. You don’t want to know. I don’t want to know. I don’t want to know the answer. Interesting. , My partner, one of his favorite quotes is from the book series Dune. And he often says to me, ’cause I’ll be like, ” don’t you know,” or, “Don’t you know?”

And he’s like, “I know nothing, because knowing prevents the mind from learning.” That’s the same… I used to say. Yes. Yeah. As soon as you said, “I don’t wanna know,” I was like, “Hmm.” Mm. This quote what the world needs now is…? Yin. [01:04:00] Yeah. Hell yeah. Yes … one thing I wish people knew about yin yoga.

That it’s the missing part of being alive. Mm. I felt that right in my heart. Love that. Thank you. And then, of course, you and I could talk… It sounds like we could have a whole podcast series with, eleventy billion episodes. But, , in brief, is there anything about yin therapy in a little nugget that I missed that you wanna share?

Yes. There is a very important part which you didn’t miss, but because I’m enthusiastic I go to left, I go to the right, and then- , yeah. Me too … [01:05:00] that yin yoga is not about meridians. It’s about making a connection with the big fields which are around us and creating us into our body suit. This is just a body suit which you see, and it’s making me alive.

But that big fields, which we call plasma velden, chong mai, du mai, ren mai, dai mai, you can call them, eight, eight parts of them. The extraordinary vessels. The extraordinary vessels are so important for yin to understand and to know how to make a connection, and then the meridian can be filled or be emptied.

And it’s easier [01:06:00] also for tr- traditional Chinese medicine to do the things because you don’t even have to put a needle. The intention is already there, and it’s- Yeah … already. So I think if we will go in once more into this part, then it would be nice to go into that extraordinary meridians, the seas of…

Yeah, plasma. Yeah. Let’s write that down for next time. Let’s do it. Yeah. Good. Good. Good. Good. And for those of you that were like, “The, sorry, the what? The e- extra what?” No, we’re not talking about superheroes in the Marvel Universe. Within the Chinese medicine system, there are what’s called the eight extraordinary vessels or, pathways, I guess you could say.

And so that’s what we’re alluding to. But , that in itself could be a whole episode. So maybe we’ll make it maybe we’ll make that a whole episode in the future. Yeah, that’s- Yeah, you all can let us know if that’s something you want us to dive into. We’ll [01:07:00] start to wrap it up now.

First of all, I will put all your details, of course, in the episode notes, your website, your book that’s available now. And then of course, when the book is in English, we’ll bring you back on again to talk about it. But just so that people that are out walking the dog right now have a audio version, where can people find you online?

Website, Instagram, anything you wanna share. Yeah, the website. The website yinassociation.org is our website. And- .org, O-R-G? O- O-R-G. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yinassociation.org. And there are some videos on the internet, on YouTube, but usually they are in Dutch. But I think there will be a lot of English versions available soon.

And maybe for the future if people want to do a sort of a master and international master integrative medicine yin therapy, next year we will start the [01:08:00] first edition. So if people want this and they want it in their country, I could come to Canada, or I could come to the US, find a nice spot, and, and arrange it over there.

Okay. That could be also in the Netherlands or in Hungary. So they could reach out to you if this is something they really wanna bring you in for? Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. And of course, I’ll put all of those links in the episode notes so people can tap and find you. And I think, I don’t know for sure, so don’t quote me, but I think that on YouTube you might be able to translate maybe.

We’ll s- we could see, yeah. You can send me your YouTube too, and I’ll put that in the link in the notes as well. Thank you. All right, my friend. We’ll call it, We’ll say our proper goodbyes once I stop recording.

But for those of you watching or listening, bye for now. Bye.

[01:09:00] For those of you who stick around until the very end, thank you. If you love this podcast, I’d be grateful if you gave it a review. It really helps other yin yoga lovers find it. If you’ve already given a review, would you consider sharing a screenshot in your Instagram stories? And don’t forget to tag me at nicdenuyoga or @yinyogapodcast so I can share the love.

Before I sign off, some gratitude. First, for you, the listener, for spending time with me today. Big gratitude and deep reverence for my teacher, Paul Grilley. Thank you to Fred Westra for the Hang Drum samples. You can hear more of his music by clicking the link in the show notes. A big thank you to my beloved for mixing the intro and outro tracks.

And until we meet again, may you be well. May you be content. [01:10:00] May you be at peace. May you be free.