Yin Yoga for Neurodiverse Students – With TJ Maher

Yin Yoga for Neurodiverse Students
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[00:00:00] If you have ever wondered what’s the deal with all this neurodivergent stuff, you ever noticed that popping up more and more lately? We’re gonna talk a lot about that today. So whether you are neurodivergent or know someone who is, or you’re a teacher who just wants your classes to be as open and accessible to as many people as possible.

Then this one’s a good episode for you.

Welcome to a Yinny Yoga podcast. I’m your host, Nick Denu, certified yoga therapist, mentor of yoga teachers, yinny yoga teacher trainer, and total yin yoga geek. If you have a crush on yin yoga and are ready to dive deep, then you’re in the right place. [00:01:00] Here, myself and my guests will discuss all things in yoga, including anatomy, philosophy, traditional Chinese medicine, meditation, Taoism, teaching tips, and so much more.

You can expect these conversations to be long format, informal, lo-fi, and delightfully imperfect. So whether you are a yoga teacher or a yin yoga student, I welcome you to the inside.

Hello friends. Welcome back to a Yin Yoga podcast. I’m gonna keep the preamble a little brief on this one because the episode that I just finished recording with my new friend, TJ, is on the longer side. So I’m gonna keep this brief. Welcome back to a Y Yoka podcast. If you have ever [00:02:00] wondered what’s the deal with all this neurodivergent stuff, you ever noticed that popping up more and more lately?

We’re gonna talk a lot about that today. So whether you are neurodivergent or know someone who is. Or you’re a teacher who just wants your classes to be as, , open and accessible to as many people as possible, then this one’s a good episode for you. I will say that this one is a little bit more, as my conversations often are of a fireside chat.

Between TJ and I than a formal interview, , which I actually much prefer and from the feedback I’ve gotten from all of you, you do as well. So of course we do talk about, TJ’s pathway to yoga, but a lot of this is TJ and I riffing back and forth as two neurodivergent souls, talking about our experience.

And then of course we talk a bit [00:03:00] about, how that affects. Education and trainings, et cetera. , So you can expect a little bit more of a casual kind of riff and riffing back and forth. And you can also expect this one to be a bit longer. But I think well worthwhile for anyone who is neurodivergent or if you just have neurodivergent folks in your life or you wanna, , teach people more skillfully because.

You know, I often say to my teacher trainees, , when we’re talking about trauma. If they say, I don’t, yeah, but I don’t work with those populations. , Because I think sometimes people think that trauma, for example, is like a specific group, and I’m like, if you work with humans, you’re working with trauma.

And I would say the same thing about being, , aware of your teaching as far as being, , neurodivergent. You probably have your rooms filled with them and don’t even know, sometimes, you know, if they’ve shared it to you or if it’s apparent. , But often many of us have gotten so good at [00:04:00] masking our neurodivergent nature that you may have rooms with many of us and not even know.

So I hope that this episode helps those of you who are neurodivergent just to feel like you’re sort of, you know, um, in it with us. For those of you who aren’t, , to get a better understanding and maybe some ahas about things you might wanna add to your classes.

TJ’s yoga story began when he conceived a book from the dodging from his sister. 20 years ago, the book poetically explored ideas that resonated with him then and still continue to guide him. He has an MFA in art and six years as a grade school art teacher, and a deep appreciation for the journey of self-exploration that is essential to learning that paired with traveling endless textual study and over a decade of meditation, TJ decided.

That the inward journey [00:05:00] would be his focus. He began seeking out teachers to deepen this understanding and go beyond the limits he’d reached on his own. I’m not gonna go into all of the teachers he studied with, ’cause there’s a lot of them, and you could see it on his bio page. But needless to say, he began to study movement with visiting teachers from Japan.

He began to study showering, kung fu and Tai Chi. Soon after that, he moved to San Francisco to study zen calligraphy. When possible, he attends lectures and teachings offered by the Dalai Lama, and then some years ago, TJ’s Journey finally led him back to Daoism via Yin Yoga, beginning with Bernie Clark’s 60 hour training in Vancouver.

Then he studied with Corina Brenner in her 30 hour in training in New York City. After that, he found Stephanie Calhoun. Shout out Stephanie, another Canadian and Grilly trained teacher, , and took her 100 hour yin training in New Brunswick. [00:06:00] TJ liked Stephanie’s teaching so much. He decided to pursue his 200 hour yoga teacher training from her.

And from there he continued with her and took her 100 hour chakra training, 100 hour restorative training, completing his 500 hour in 2015. In November of that year, TJ Complete completed a 30 day solitary self-guided meditation retreat at the Repa Center in Vermont. . TJ has also traveled to klo.

Center in Massachusetts to broaden his his yoga training and has completed the first part of Thai yoga massage training. Recently he completed a 200 hour Qigong teacher training in Thailand, and since the pandemic, he’s begun studying with teachers online and is currently learning .

Kung fu. Lots of Qigong. Lots of Taoism. Anyways, you can read more of course [00:07:00] on, on tj. , His bio page is quite in depth. It’s on his website and that, of course his website will be linked in the show notes. So I’ve reached out to TJ mostly because, first of all, I had been suggested him as an interviewee by one of his students, but she didn’t really have a topic in mind, so I just.

Put a bookmark in it. , But then when I saw in a yin yoga network that TJ had a yin yoga and meditation training with a focus on being neurodiverse and teaching the Neurodiverse, I was like, well, now we’ve got something to talk about. And so that’s why I brought TJ on again, bit of a longer episode, but I think well worth it.

And, , the next time you hear from me, you will be hearing from me and my new friend tj.

Hi, TJ and welcome to a Y Yoga podcast. Hi. , , you and I have talked [00:08:00] about it already before I hit record, but just so that the listeners get a little glimpse, I was actually, I cannot remember who sent me the DM on Instagram, so my apologies if you’re listening and you’re like, that was me.

But one of your students had messaged me probably when the show was quite new and said, you should talk to tj. And I was like, awesome. About what? And, uh, she’s like, I don’t know, I just think you two would get along. And I was like, well, that’s great, but we’re not at the point yet in the podcast where I’ve run out of topics and we’re just doing yoga chats.

Although anyone who’s listened does know that these tend to be more conversational than formal interview style. When I saw that you had your new course coming out, which we’ll dive into in depth in a moment , as we go, , I was like, aha, that’s what we need to talk to TJ about just briefly, do you wanna just kind of give people a little, who’s tj?

What’s his deal? 1 0 [00:09:00] 1. , So let’s see the, that question’s always like where to begin? Mm-hmm. Like who am I? Yes., So I teach in yoga teacher trainings. It’s about 2014. And I am from New York. I live in Barcelona now full time with my partner and 2-year-old daughter. And I’m a super geek. , I’m an artist.

My background’s in art and uh, yeah, I just love. Meditation, Zen Buddhism, all this stuff. As much as I love Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, comic books, like awesome. Um, so that’s kind of me, like goofy and zen basically. That’s the short version that would explain why she thought we would hit it off, I think right there.

Yes. You are, correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re a teacher as well before teaching yoga. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was a school teacher. , I taught art, , on Long Island in New York to middle schoolers. And then I [00:10:00] taught in Harlem art as well to elementary school. , So I’ve always taught art to kids.

And yeah, that’s what kind of led into yoga. I can get into that whenever we want to. Yeah. Let’s start the, let’s start with that. Let’s start with your yoga journey from like. How did you find yoga, like as a practitioner, and then how did you end up becoming a yoga teacher? So the practitioner part, that came, like when, I was living in Hawaii doing, , a to become a school teacher, like in New York State, you need some time like, like doing some supervised kind of support, like teaching time.

And I was doing that in Hawaii at a private school. And in my off time I would just go to the library and get books, and read books on things. And, , I got a yoga book. , It was like, I think Ashtanga talked about Sun Salutations , and I. Kind of heard about yoga and , was interested in it, but I, I’m not someone that goes to class.

I’m like quite an introvert, [00:11:00] so I like, wanted to teach myself. But this was in the days where I was still watching VHS tapes and stuff and you couldn’t really get anything. So from this book, I taught myself Sun Salutations, and that’s how I started like doing yoga. , And I didn’t understand it properly though, and I was doing like yin yoga version of sun salutations before I knew what Yin yoga was, or like, kind of like an Iyengar version where you’re in each pose for like minutes at a time.

Yeah. And with like total relaxation, like my body was just like, we’re gonna do this, like, the way that feels right to us. And like, I just was like in all these poses and provided they didn’t require , muscles to stay upright in, in any way for five, 10 minutes. Just letting it all go.

And then I would come out and lie down for a bit and then go back into it., And like this was like, wasn’t like the full sun salutation. There were some other poses that were like forward fold and stuff sitting on the floor. But, that’s how I started my yoga journey.

So the first time I ever went to an actual yoga class, I was like, [00:12:00] why is everyone moving so fast? What the hell’s going on here? Yeah. , And then , I think it was like, I kind of did a little bit of that, like just, um, as, as the years went by before I became a school teacher. , And then school teaching is like super intense, like super, not stressful in a bad way, but like you got 30 kids at a time being like shoveled into your room.

And, , and so at the end of the day I was like, needed something and I got much more into like meditation and yoga. And then with the summers off, , that the teachers in the US have, i, I think everywhere people get like long, like summers or something.. But, um, I had two months where I was just like, I don’t have to work.

I was just browsing bookshelves in a bookstore and found Bernie Clark’s book. And I was reading it and I was like, wait, Daoism. I was like, long held stretches. I was like, this is kind of the stuff I love. Like, I was really into Daoism in the da like before I even got into yoga. And then the long held stretches, like I just said, that’s [00:13:00] how I did Sun Salutations.

So I was like, I gotta find out what this is. , I started finding like yoga classes in New York City, like yin classes. And there wasn’t too many of ’em at that point. I forget what it was. Do you, what time of what decade was Probably like decade. This was, it must’ve been like 2010 ish.

Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, so it was just before yin really just kind of started going everywhere. Yeah. That’s when it was just starting to climb. Yeah. And,, and so I found a few classes, and I just loved it. And at the, I think I, I even did trainings that year. I did one, , with Stephanie Calhoun, one with Bernie Clark,, and one with the, a teacher named Corina Benner, , who’s from Philadelphia.

And I was just like, immersed in it. , And this is probably part of, the hyperfocus of a DH adhd. Mm-hmm. Which I didn’t realize at the time, but, uh, I was just like, gimme everything you have on this. Um, and I went back to teach, , the school year started, and,, my supervisor was like, , are you, is your heart still in this?

And I was like, no, I want to teach you in yoga. , And so I, I quit the school teaching job and, and kinda [00:14:00] went on to the, the yin yoga journey, which is more of a story as well, depending how much time we wanna spend on each, each part. I have a couple things I wanna tease out there. , One is that, I also have previous teaching experience, although not in a, I went to college, got a degree, but I was a hair color educator,, for my previous career was a platform artist, hairstylist.

So I traveled around and, , taught on stage and stuff. And so I had been teaching also before I taught yoga, which I always think I’m so grateful for. I think that’s such a gift when you learn how to teach and then you just are taking different material, you know? Yeah. And putting it in there. , So that must have been super helpful.

And then I’m really curious how in the world and American practitioner practicing in New York found Stephanie because she’s Canadian and we don’t usually get discovered, so I wanna know about that. Oh, now you found Stephanie. , [00:15:00] Google. Like really? Yeah. Like it was, Stephanie’s got some good SEO apparently.

I don’t even remember, if it was on Facebook or like where, but it was just deep, deep dives in Google searching like, like 20 pages deep or something. Like, um, again, that hyper focus, I was just like, I wanna find the Bestian trainings out there. Mm-hmm. And I couldn’t afford Paul Greeley.

But like Bernie Clark, like, he was actually full, his training that summer, um, and an opening came and I was like, I’ll take it. Like he called or wrote and was like, are you still interested in the training? I was like, yes. And then , there was one in New York City, which is Corina Benner, so that probably just found locally somehow.

But then, yeah, Stephanie, I don’t even remember what it was that popped up, but it was a hundred hour, which is different. Back then there was no a hundred hours. Um, and I was, except with Paul. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had like so much like depth. Yeah. But I was like, okay, like this is. This is something that [00:16:00] looks like really in depth and I can afford it.

Um, and it’s just north of New York, like in New Brunswick, , , I just went for it. I, I forget if I drove up there even. ,

, Uh, so that’s really cool. So you did your a hundred hours with Stephanie in Halifax of all places too, because that’s such a, , , sometimes people forget that Canada’s huge, like landmass wise, so I’ve never been to the Maritimes, ’cause I’m from , the prairies right next to bc, which is on the other coast where you would’ve studied with Bernie. , So that’s where I’m at. And there’s a whole lot of, like if you were to do a road trip, there’s a whole lot of, I don’t really need to see that on the way to Halifax.

Um, so I haven’t done the Maritimes yet, although if you’re listening and you’re in the Maritimes and you wanna bring me in to do a yin training. We could talk. And so I would love to go., There’s some awesome yoga studios over there and it’s so beautiful as you noticed. Oh yeah. You were there. Yeah.

Even the winter wasn’t like, it was like Disney magical like level of winters there. Yes. Like where you just are like, oh, okay, we’re hunkering in Yeah. For [00:17:00] like half the year. Like, but the, the snow is just like gorgeous. Like, and, and then when it melters Yeah, yeah, yeah. They pile it up. I have photos of it where I’m just like, this is different.

Anyways, I digress. Which will happen folks. Yeah. It’s gonna be a fun one. Yes, exactly. Side, side quests everywhere. Yeah. The big reason that, , I wanted to have you on was your now, now newly minted, , course.

But before we dive into talking about the course, let’s talk about. What is, what in the world is neurodiverse? What is neurodivergent it? I feel like, , an autism falls under that umbrella, but I feel like, uh, it’s being talked about so much more now, that it’s almost like, it’s almost like the word mindfulness.

Like it’s one of those words where everyone kind of has a vague idea about what it means, but no one can actually define it. Like if you ask the average person on the street, [00:18:00] what is mindfulness, they’re like something to do with what’s that doing? Right. Stress reduction and meditation, I don’t know.

Yeah. , , let’s talk a bit about your experience, first of all as someone who is Neurodiverse., And then kind of what sparked you to make this training. I’m also, by the way, I’m gonna out Myselves will out ourselves as the episode continues, friends as. We’ll, we’ll pull out our labels, but, um, when did you kind of start to get a sense that , oh wait, not everyone’s brain works like this?

Yeah. , So just for context, like the neurodiverse , is just like different brains, like, different wiring is how I think about it a lot. , And it’s weird ’cause I’ve only been diagnosed in the last year Wow. But I spent my whole life kind of thinking like, not everyone’s brain works this way.

Mm-hmm. But thinking it was more my preferences, like thinking like, I just like [00:19:00] this and I don’t like that and so I’m gonna do this and Yep. And other people can do that. And I just assumed like everyone had all the same stuff going on like the same way. I relate it a lot to Yin yoga’s anatomical variation the same way until you learn about that.

Everyone thinks all our bones are the same. If I practice enough, yes, I’ll be able to do what that person does. And once you see the bones, you’re like, oh, oh, I might not ever be able to do that. Yeah. We’re not seam Zs. Yeah. And I feel like neurodiversity and neurodivergence is, , is like that.

And it’s again, only in the last year that I’ve started to like deep dive into this and retroactively look at my life and, and be like, ah, that’s why it was like that. Ah, that’s why that was like that. It’s become more , something where I’m like, ah, it’s a wiring thing. It’s like a bone structure thing for the mind.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, , and so it’s been quite a year of readjusting. , On the one hand [00:20:00] it was really difficult. To readjust. And on the other hand, it wasn’t ’cause I just kind of always, it made sense. It was like, yeah, like this explains a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the what got it from me, ’cause interestingly, like my partner, , is a specialist in diagnosing A DHD , and autism.

And so we’ve talked about it a lot, like just out of academic curiosity and , but it never made sense to me ’cause the clinical language never aligned with my experience. So when she would talk about it, I would always be like, I don’t think that is me. Doesn’t make sense. , But as soon as I started reading other people describe their experience from , a perspective of their mind.

And the experience of their mind, almost like phenomenology. Um, I would read it and I’d be like, I would say to my partner when I would read something, someone would say, who was diagnosed with a DHD? You don’t think like this? Everybody doesn’t think like this, what I just read, this person thinks like, and she was like, no, just people with a DHD think like that [00:21:00] or have that kind of thing in their, like daily life , of their mind.

And so that’s when it started to click. When I read other people describe their experience and I was like, that’s how I would describe mine. , But up until then I just heard clinical language and it was always like, no, it doesn’t work. Out of curiosity, what, can you give me an example of what that clinical language would’ve been that would’ve made you think , no, it’s not me.

If you can think of one. Yeah, I mean it’s kind of like, uh, like earlier you said like, um. The a, DD, um, and, and I think a lot of people, I even, I was like, I’m not hyperactive. Mm-hmm. Like, I don’t like need to move. I, I couldn’t tell if it was from years of meditation and yin yoga, I could really just be very settled and still physically, but my mind is, really active.

Um, always has been. And I always thought everyone’s was because I just, I never said to anyone. Is your mind constantly going and from the relative perspective of [00:22:00] everyone’s own mind? It feels like it is, yes. But there’s a, the spectrum and the scale of it is hard to gauge. , And in clinical language, I think they always just* have *these ways of viewing things that are like, , from the perspective of an.

Usually all the clinical language and tests are made by non neurodivergent people. Right. And so , it would be a test that says do you tap your foot a lot? Do you have to have something in your hand all the time? And I don’t. So it, I was always like, well, I must not have it. Or , can you not interact in social situations in this way or that way?

And I’d be like, no, I can do that , if I have to. I don’t want to. I maybe have a preference not to, or that I thought, um, but I was like, no, I can do this, I can do that. And so I must not have it. ’cause it’s very outside perspective, the way it’s described clinically. Mm-hmm. But when you see that or hear the inside perspective of someone say , like the nuance of, it feels like your mind is a bicycle and you’re putting jet fuel into it or something.

And I’m like, oh, okay. Like [00:23:00] little things like that. , And I could probably find a whole list of all the things that I read of people describing their experience. . But it clicked ’cause it was first person perspective. Right. And that made sense. Whereas the clinical language was always like outside perspective, looking at someone tap their foot constantly or not be able to make eye contact or something when they have a social interaction or I don’t know, things like that.

When I was a kid and , I was one of the lucky few who was diagnosed as a kid, which considering that I’m female is even more unusual because it often a DD and I think autism as well, but I can’t speak to that, , is often harder to diagnose , with girl children because we’re not as, as physical.

So whereas you, a teacher might look out at a classroom and see a little boy who can’t sit still and is fidgeting a little girl might be more likely to stare out the window and get lost in thought. Hmm. Now of course I’m speaking in general generalities, [00:24:00] but , this is what I’ve been told. And I was definitely , the little girl who got on my report card that if I spent as much time focusing on my studies as I did, staring out the window, , I think for me, the only reason that I was diagnosed and I’ll just out myself, and they used, they only used to call it, , a DD.

There was people that had a DD and then there was people that had a DHD. Mm. And so they kind of did back when I was a kid, they, they split it and I didn’t really have that HD part. , Or so I thought, of course it was probably happening in my mind. And I do tend to be fidgety. , I do tend to have trouble holding still, although not when I’m doing yin or when I’m meditating.

Like when the point of the thing is still, I don’t have a problem with it. But when it’s just, . It’s like you can hyperfocus on the stillness. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. , And , so I think the only reason, so I have, um, a DD or a DHD depending on which label you wanna throw on it. [00:25:00] And I also have, , dysgraphia and I could talk briefly, we can talk a little bit maybe in a moment about the different, , sum of, and again, just to clarify, neither TJI are specialists who diagnose these things.

We’re speaking from our own experience and research. So if you think that you have this, you should seek, I think, I feel like you should seek someone out. , Because I just feel like, , I think a lot of people that I’ve spoken to that think they might have a DD or A DHD are afraid to go and get diagnosed because they think that then they have to be medicated.

Hmm. And I’m like, maybe if you want. But I’m not, we can talk about that too. Yeah. Like, I’ve experienced that. Yeah. So some people I think, are afraid to have an official diagnosis because now they’re part of a medical system. They’re worried about that. Mm. And I don’t, I don’t think that that’s the case.

I mean, a lot of people with a DD find medication super helpful. It’s just, it’s not for me. But,, [00:26:00] everyone should do what works for them. And I was also diagnosed with dysgraphia, which, , that one goes into, writing. , Spelling is included in that, although it’s different than dyslexia. So when I read, I don’t mix up letters or numbers.

Like someone in with dyslexia would, I’m fine for reading, but when I’m writing,. Spacing of words and letters is an issue. I used to hold my, my pencil, weird. They gave me this, oh, the eighties they gave in seventies. I was,, I was born in the seventies. So my upbringing of young school would’ve been seventies and eighties.

They gave me this weird plastic triangle that I had to put on my pencil, and it was supposed to correct my grip, , which all it did was give me weird blisters, and I ended up taking it off and just holding my pencil, however the hell I wanted. , But that’s where it started. Um, I also wonder, and I don’t know if I’m gonna ever invest in going to see an expert to find out, um, if I have, I’m gonna say it wrong now, so I’m just gonna spell it.

Friends, [00:27:00] D-Y-S-C-A-L-C-U-L-I-A. This is one of the things that goes along with my dysgraphia, is like trying to pronounce and spell things sometimes, , which is a difficulty with math. So I didn’t have any difficulty. With reading, with , in fact, I loved it. I’m a total book nerd and was reading above my level from the time I was very small.

But what I had trouble with was writing in a way that someone else could read it. My sister used to joke and say that I have the writing of an 8-year-old boy, although I never grew out of it. Like still, I don’t like writing out handwriting out cards and stuff because, it’s like a mix of capital, lowercase, the spacing’s all off.

It’s like you can read it, but , it’s not pretty, you know, it was not one of those little girls who sat there, that kind practicing my handwriting. I mean, I tried, but nothing changed. , It also drastically affects my spelling. , Memorizing how to spell things for me, never worked. Um, I would probably have to write out a word.

I don’t know, thousands of times if it was a word that I’ve had [00:28:00] difficulty with, and even then I would probably only remember how to spell it. For a couple months and then it would, it would go, ? Yeah. So I was lucky in when I was in school that my mom is a writer and she had a typewriter. And so I would write out my papers and then she would type them out and so she would fix any spelling or , whatever.

And then I would hand them in. And I was always like honor student in my English because I had the understanding of the material and the passion for the material. But if I were, if I were to hand in that piece of P paper, it wouldn’t have gone well. So I think that’s probably what clued my mother in that like, maybe something’s going on here.

And so she bought me to a psychologist as a kid that specialized in diagnosing stuff. Although back then, all we got told as little children is that we were learning disabled. Mm-hmm. And we all got thrown into one room regardless of what, they had a lot of [00:29:00] try trouble placing me. Because if they put me in the so-called learning disabled or go more at your own pace room, I got incredibly bored.

’cause I’d fly through the material, I’d be done, and then it’d be staring out the window going like, come on. Yeah. But if they put me in, especially with math, if they put me in like the regular classroom, I just, I don’t learn math the way it’s taught. Mm-hmm. Um, and so oftentimes I would, on an exam, for example, if you’d get marks for, we would get in high school math a mark for show two marks for showing your work and a mark for the right answer.

But I always got the right answer differently. Mm-hmm. Like even now when I play a game with my partner and we have to count up points, I notice the difference between the way that our minds Yeah. Add things up. And so the way connections are made. Yes, exactly. So I would lose two points out of every three on every question, even though I had the right answer.

Because the teacher would then say, well, how did [00:30:00] you get that answer? And I’m like, well. I mean, I could try to explain it to you, but I think they just thought I was like looking at the person next to me. , And so I never, , did continue very far with math, , even into later high school., Because of that, I think had I had a tutor that understood different learning styles, I would’ve, I would’ve done really well in that as well.

Because there was one summer where I went to summer school to pull up my math mark because it was abysmal. And for whatever reason, just the way that teacher taught, all of the sudden I was like, oh my God, this makes perfect sense to me. And then I got an A, but then I went back to my regular school and I would ask the teacher, I would always try, like, I would say, I don’t, I don’t understand.

I don’t get it. And they would just repeat it the same way. So, and I’d be like, yeah, didn’t get it the first time you said it that way. And so there just wasn’t, yeah, back then. A lot of, um. I think even just understanding of learning styles, let alone Yeah. [00:31:00] Neurodivergence, you know, like that some people are more audio or more visual or, you know, and so, yeah, and my math ended very quickly because of that, so I have a feeling I’m not sure that I would might ask.

Also, add on, is it dyscalculia? I don’t know if I’m saying that right, which is a difficulty with math, but that would be me self diagnosing. I don’t know for sure, but I do know that I have a DHD and, uh, dysgraphia, although at the time I was just told I was learning disabled, which is ,, a lovely badge to wear, , as a child, just walk around going, yeah, my brain’s broken.

There’s so much in there to like unpack about like the education system and what makes a good teacher versus like someone who just is like. Why can’t you memorize this thing that I said the same way five times? Or like there’s Yeah, there’s so much, and the labeling approach and Yeah, it’s one thing that I’m like so adamant about, like [00:32:00] trying to change is the, like, the way that everything is, and again, it’s what I talked about with the clinical perspective.

Everything is made from the perspective of people who don’t have the experience of other wired brains, which is very similar again, to like, if you’re someone who has the bone structure to do all the poses. Mm-hmm. Then if you design the curriculum, you’re just gonna be trying to make all people who might not have their own structure do all the poses.

And it’s like, that’s not how this works. , So I think a lot of, like, I, I think it’s changed a lot like in recent years, the idea that like,, things have to be viewed from. From many perspectives and a more individualized approach to education is becoming, if not, not the norm. I think it’s still pretty far from that, but , like it’s something that’s understood as beneficial for students.

Like in the states, we have IEPs in school, like individual education plans. Mm-hmm. For anyone that has [00:33:00] like a Neurodivergence or something like that, or who is falling behind in classes, they make this really elaborate plan to help that student. It’s something I got familiar with as a school teacher and I was like, why don’t we just make this for every student?

Like, it sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, yeah, that, that’s really interesting because yeah, that would’ve, and they tried to do that in my school. So basically at one point, you know, in junior high, which is I think what you guys call middle school, if I’m not correct. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Second. Yeah, junior high too.

But yeah, it’s kind of blunt. Okay. . So when I was in high school, it was easier because you got to pick your courses and , yeah, you had to take a math, but there was three levels. There was sort of like, this is gonna make you a able to balance your checkbook, basically.

Math, which is, or what we used to call as kids, the dummy math, which is, , not the nicest name. And then there’s , one that’s above that. And then there’s like the one that like you are gonna need if you want to go to university kind of thing. This, now it [00:34:00] might be different now ’cause this was of course in the seventies and eighties when I was a kid that, , that would’ve been eighties, nineties at that point.

But, um, in high school I took the dummy math knowing like I, I just grew up knowing I’m not good at math. In fact, I was held back in grade three. I wish my mom was pretty scrappy. I’m surprised she didn’t fight this more. But, uh, in grade three, the teacher who was a. Terrible person who should not have been working with children.

Um, anyways, , wanted to hold me back because I didn’t have my 11 and 12 times tables memorized. Mm-hmm. Which is hysterical, memorized because if you think about elevens like, come on. So really what I think they would probably do now is they would speak to my mom and they’d say, here’s some flashcards.

Take the summer to catch this kid up, move them along. But back then, you know, failing a grade or being held back.

So that started the voice in my head of, I’m not good at math. , And so I did in [00:35:00] high school take the , so-called dummy math. But, , again, I found, then I found it easy. So I was always right in between. And I think a program like what you’re talking about, where it’s like, go at your own pace, maybe have some extra resources, , like flashcards or a tutor or something would’ve been really good.

In my generation, , gen X, the one that gets forgotten about. , It wasn’t diagnosed very often. , People were just called slow or learning disabled. I was just lucky that my mom,, she saw something and took me to a child psychologist so that I actually had an official label.

But then I proceeded to forget completely about that label, . Because it didn’t affect my life. So when I left school, I picked up a trade. , It was, it fit well with my, the way my brain works. And so I excelled at it and I did really well.

And then I became a yoga teacher and, again, self-employed so I can, , I can really work around the way my mind [00:36:00] works. And it wasn’t until I moved here and threw myself into full-time Chinese medicine college that I was like, oh shit. Right? My brain doesn’t work like this. , When there was just this mass amount of information being thrown at us that we were supposed to instantly memorize and remember, I was like, oh, right.

I forgot. Yeah, this isn’t wired that way. And so the amount of self-study that I had to do to even in some of those courses, . So you’ll probably laugh at this.

I remember studying pathophysiology, , and sitting on my own at home with a huge, like one of those like big post-it boards that you would use if you were doing a presentation, turning all of the different cells into superheroes based on their name and giving them outfits so that I could remember which ones were immune cells and which ones were this.

I mean I had this whole like thing drawn out to, [00:37:00] because I understood my brain needs, meaning, first of all to memorize this. Second of all, I’m kinesthetic. So , the physical part and then color.

But I realized that I was studying probably four or five times more Yeah. Than what people were because I was having to take the material that was being presented in lecture and then go home and reteach it to myself.

So if the lecture was three hours, I was spending three hours trying to teach myself that material. Yeah. , So yeah, there’s a bit about my neurodiversity, and it wasn’t until then also that I started hearing, like you said, other voices, whether it be in my own personal realm or just on online, where I’d be like, oh, wait.

Is that a neurodiverse thing? I thought that was just like me. I Wait, not everybody wants two beverages at the same time. No. Oh, okay. Like you said, not everybody has this , ongoing like hamster wheel in the head. Yeah. [00:38:00] Oh, I thought that we were all like that.

And like you were saying, you were talking about your connecting with people eye contact, the kind of social aspect. And I really, when you were saying that was like, oh my God, I used to think that was just an introverted thing.

I used to just think, I just don’t like small talk. I don’t, you just picked a different label, which I don’t, which is true. I am an introvert and I don’t, but when I became a hairdresser, when I first graduated hair school, my preference would’ve been to, talk about what are we gonna do here, blah.

And to just shut up and get to work. But what I realized very quickly is that clients were expecting a social experience. Most of them. , In hindsight now, if I’d go back, I would’ve niched into. Introverts and Neurodivergence as my clients. , I would’ve just been like, if you wanna chat, I’m not your girl, ?

But instead, I was like, okay, they’re expecting small talk. I don’t know how to do [00:39:00] small talk. And so I went to the library because this is before the internet was a big thing. And I got out some books on small talk and I wrote myself recipe cards of questions that I could ask people to encourage conversation.

And then it was easier the next time I saw them because I would remember what we talked about and I could touch on it again. But I never enjoyed that. I just did it because it was what was expected of me. So anything you wanna add to that? But I was just really, when you said that about, yeah, , I’m, I was trained to be highly social, even now with students, like , I can put that on that outfit on.

I can talk, yeah, we can chat. But would I rather be talking about. Like your soul and the universe. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And there’s actually, , I don’t know if you’ve heard it before, like an a name for that. Officially it’s called masking. Mm-hmm. Like when, what’s expected of you is to fit into neurotypical.

Yeah. Like frameworks. And so [00:40:00] you, like neurodivergent minds are as sharp as anyone else’s. They pick up on like the patterns. Like if you’re raised by wolves, like you learn to be a wolf. Yeah. , If you’re, like, you figure out what needs to be done to mimic like what you’ve learned the expectations are, or you like just completely avoid it and go into some other direction.

Or you find people who do want to talk about the universe and what am I, , or geek, like whatever the interest that gives you dopamine is , you find the people who you’re gonna be able to have that with. Um, and it’s really fascinating, like , the level that. Like mimicking, like neurotypical expectations and culturally like set expectations like can get to such a high degree.

I’ve heard some people, , with Neurodivergence say, I’m not even sure the distinction anymore. Like, I, they’re like, I come home and I can’t actually tell what is me and what’s not. Yeah. ’cause it’s, it’s not like a real thing you put on and take off. It’s like you just get used to these [00:41:00] behaviors. Um, and so that’s a fascinating thing to kind of un unpack and peel away like an onion.

Like, I think I’m doing this because I think I’m supposed to. Like, so what’s left when I’m just doing who I am? It’s, yeah. That’s why I, Buddhism and meditation. ’cause it brings you there. Yeah. Yeah. Meditation, definitely.

And do I always think this much and all of the things. ,, I’ve always heard about masking for autistic folks. I hadn’t thought about that with, a DD as well. , But yeah, that’s really, that’s an interesting thing and yes, , this is why most people in my life when I say I am an introvert, will look at me like, what? Yeah, because they think that, they assume that if you’re an introvert, that means automatically, means socially awkward.

Mm-hmm. It doesn’t, sometimes it does, but there’s extroverts that are socially awkward too. Mm-hmm. , It just means, like you were saying, like if you wanna get me a topic that I’m really into, you will hear me [00:42:00] talk forever and ever. Clearly you can see by this episode, , but if it’s something I’m not, then I’ll, that’s when I have to pull out, like you were saying, that mask of like, oh, right, okay.

People expect. A certain amount of this kind of conversation. So I better, yeah, I better bring it, otherwise it’s gonna be even more obvious that I’m a misfit. , Or you just get comfortable being a misfit time I spent trying to get comfortable, just being the one who’s hanging back, staring out the window when everyone else is talking or someone is talking about something, and I’m calculating all kinds of other things that are like useful to me, but still quasi listening, like , the multitasking that’s possible with neurodivergent brain seems to be pretty high.

Or,, you’re at a party and I’m the person in the corner talking to the pets, yeah, yeah. That’s are like, I don’t know, my, I don’t know if it’s a neurodivergent thing or whatever, but like, yeah, they’re my people.

And I think that is partially why is that I have always, from childhood felt like a misfit. The only time I’ve pulled out the mask [00:43:00] is when it comes to my profession. Mm-hmm. So as a hairstylist,, had I known back then when I was 18 that there is this thing called masking and that there is this thing called introversion and that there are more of me out there that I could specialize in working with people like that.

I would’ve run hard with that, but it just I would’ve felt so kindred with as opposed to feeling. Mm-hmm. Always this sort of feeling like I’m standing outside. I often have felt throughout my life that there’s sort of a clear bubble.

Around people and I’m , I’m able to see everything, but I’m like, outside of that bubble. Like I’m , not in it with them, but I’m like, logically I can look at them and I can see what they’re doing and understand it, but it’s like I’m not connected to it. Feeling like , you’re observing but not involved.

I think there’s also, there’s certain areas, like you were saying, like the career you got into, like played into like some of your strengths. Like there are so many, as many [00:44:00] strengths to a neurodivergent brain as a, like a non neurodivergent brain. And , it’s like if, if you happen to find your way into one of those, like for me, art like just kind of allowed me to be who I was.

’cause it was kind of expected that like you’d have eccentricities or you’d be totally like unusual ideas and Yeah. And so it was just kind of like once you get in there. Like your mask is just, you like, ’cause it’s like there, that’s what’s expected in the art world or like in the yoga world too. Like there’s a like quite a bit of expectation from like the, the general public that you’re just gonna be like, walk to your own beat, your own drummer, you know

, So there must be so many moments of your life that you’re looking back at now going, oh, that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, it’s like putting a different filter on everything because like I, I said like before, I used to just think this is my preference to do it this way.

[00:45:00] And that’s why I made that decision back then. And that’s why , I did things that way. Like when I was in that situation, it was always just, that’s who I am and that’s what I preferred to do. , And now it’s , ah, I probably gravitated towards it. , And was maybe a bit more had to do it that way than I realized at the time.

‘Cause I always just tried to, like, one thing art helped with was just accepting who I was. Mm-hmm. Like just kind of like, this is just me, like, deal with it world. Like I’m gonna do what, who I am, what I like, and people can come along , or I’ll do it myself. It’s okay. And now kind of realizing , oh, it was semi a choice, but also maybe not as much as I thought.

Is an interesting. A new filter to , to put on the past, were your parents, out of the box like Yep, that’s okay. TJ’s just doing TJ kind of parents, um, as far as like art and just kind of any ways that this might’ve like manifested as a kid, were they just pretty much [00:46:00] like, that’s just who he is?

They, I think it was a bit of a combination of , they were very supportive in like my artistic development and expression and me being interested in that. They were very much, oh, okay, he’s an artist and this is what he wants to do. , And so like there was that kind of support because I was able to kind of get that umbrella of artists around me pretty early on.

And I think that helped me a lot. But then I think I always view, , and maybe this is just parenthood and child relations in general, I think children teach their parents. How to be like in the long run. And so I felt like I, I did a lot of like, I know you’d maybe like me to do it this way, but I’m not gonna do it that way.

I’m gonna do it like this ’cause that’s what I wanna do. , And so I, I feel like I, I helped to shape how I wanted to be treated and, and if I wasn’t accepted for doing it this way or that way by my parents or anyone else, I would just do it anyway. Mm-hmm. Which I think can show up. Um, if people don’t know, [00:47:00] or, you know, in my childhood, people just, I was just rebellious.

Right? Yeah, exactly. I just, I asked too many questions. I was just a rebel. And it was like, well, yes. And, , yeah. Was it being with your partner that made you decide that you wanted to be officially diagnosed and was there any resistance there at all?

It was about a year, , maybe two years where it be, it started as like little jokes, like, ah, that’s an A DHD thing, but just kind of the bits and pieces that don’t add up to a diagnosis mm-hmm. Which is diagnostics are fairly complex. Like, and, , and it started to be more like, huh, this whole piece of the puzzle, is done and it says A DHD.

And we’re like, yeah, but these big pieces are missing still, like the hyperactivity and things like that. , And there were other things which I probably can’t remember now, but , and I would take some of those like online tests, that say like, Hey, how close are you?

Should you go see a di, like a someone for an assessment? And, and those, I think, again, are, are made by [00:48:00] neurotypicals. So like when you’re taking something like that, it’s like trying to get someone to conform to a standardized test. And some people don’t conform to that very well. So you end up with a, like, the end result is you don’t have it, don’t worry.

But over the course of about a year, we just started to be like, what’s going on? One thing that, that, it was too, that I think really catalyzed it was, , having a child, , and really trying to like ramp up , my career and finances and support, uh, which in the past when I was single, anytime I would ramp it up and hit a wall, it would just be like, well, I’ll just go live with my sisters for a little while, or my grandparents and , just do what I love, which is like teaching like yin and stuff like that.

And um, and so I always kind of had that ability to just like me and now it was like, no, no, no. We got a kid. You gotta keep it up like, and. The, the fatigue of like mm-hmm. 24 7, like child raising and stuff was like more hitting me than my partner. And we were like, what’s up with that? [00:49:00] Like, uh, and we were trying to figure, figure out like why I was just like dead on the couch at four in the afternoon and she was like, hours left into the evening of like productivity , or attentiveness.

And, and once it started to click, like the amount of that my brain was spinning, like grinding the gears and, and trying to like keep up. Um, the more we were kind of like it, it just made that connection with like the mind being the hyperactive kind of thing. Mm-hmm. And then, like I heard someone say once, , often you don’t realize like that you, you have something that’s wired differently until you try to ramp up your life into the next phase of like, oh, you finished college, now go to this.

You finish that, now go to this, and it’s kind of like steps up. And I would always, like, college has a lot of support and so I got through university, loved university and stuff, , could handle it really well, but anything beyond that was always like, eh, no, and try again. And , and so this was kind of something where it was like, [00:50:00] like it’s got to happen.

And so I was pushing and pushing, drinking lots of coffee and stimulants and stuff like that. , And then we were finally just like made that connection of , I think we read somewhere someone who had a DHD say , fatigue is a symptom , or is a result of having a really hyperactive mind.

Mm-hmm. And I was like, have you ever seen this? And she’s . Like, it’s not in the clinical, like diagnostic stuff, like being tired, like having heavy fatigue, , and so that’s what made us say , let’s get assessed and see. Because it will help us to know what we can do so I don’t crash at 4:00 PM every day.

Yeah. So it helps you to make, , to make a plan that works with your nature if you have this. Yeah. Yeah. And realize that it was like brain neurology instead of like, am I just like gluten intolerant? Is that why the digestion’s not working? Am I exhausted? Am not sleeping well? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So other things we were trying to think maybe that’s it.

And it, once you had like an answer to latch onto it was , okay, now we can start to try to work with [00:51:00] this. And did you feel at all a sense of relief having the diagnosis?. I don’t know if it was relief, it was more like a fascination like, like I got hyperfocused into like it sparked my dopamine.

Yeah. I was like, wait, you mean I get to reassess everything? And I was like, I get to learn how I work. , Yeah. Like I went deep down some rabbit holes of researching and learning about A DHD then and Neurodivergence and it’s why I was like, I think I can weave this into my training. I even reanalyzed my teaching over the years and was like, I think I’ve been teaching in a way that’s suitable for neurodivergent minds my whole life.

’cause I’ve been teaching since I was like 17. , And yet, , and once I realized, I was like, this isn’t just a nice way to learn and a nice way to help students learn better and a nice way to relax, like, and support people learning in yoga or art or whatever. This is how I like to learn and this is how I need to be taught when I [00:52:00] try to learn something.

And I’m just doing the golden rule do unto others, and now I’m like, oh, I’m just teaching in a neurodivergent way. That’s a good, , that’s a good time to maybe talk a little bit about, I’ll go over a few moments here of other neurodivergent styles, , that neither of us can speak to because it’s not us, perhaps.

, And this is by no means a complete list, folks, but,, so obviously most people think of autism. , I feel like when you say neurodivergent, the first two people think of are autism and a DD. And then there’s dyscalculia. Difficult with math. Difficulty with math. I don’t think I said that

which is the one I’m wondering if I also have, dysgraphia difficulty with writing. Definitely me, dyslexia. , Not me. , My father though, , and I sometimes wonder if there’s a genetic component to some of these things. There is. There is, yes. And my sister, , told [00:53:00] me not long ago that she has dyslexia, which again, was undiagnosed.

Um, so yeah, there is a genetic component you say. Interesting. Yeah. According to what I’ve understood and what my partner, has told me, like it’s definitely a genetic based thing and which is why some things fall into the category of neurodivergence and other things don’t. Like I think Tourette’s is in there too.

Yeah. Is considered neurodivergent, but I think so, yeah. I think other things like a brain injury or things that happen to you and or lead somehow to a different way of thinking or brain structure, , I think those aren’t necessarily. In the category of neuro, even though it’s part of neurodiversity.

Yeah. Like the spectrum that every brain, in humanity has, , like diverse array , of the ways thing things are understood or perceived. , But like the category of neurodivergence, I think is specific to like these kind of genetic, , neurological, , things. Yeah.

I’m just giving an overview because that could, and neither of us are experts to talk [00:54:00] on all of those., But what I’m thinking of right now too is that sometimes I feel like I’m, as I’m recording these episodes, I can close my eyes and I can hear yoga teachers’ thoughts in my head. I can’t actually, I don’t think I’m psychic, but , I just worked with them so long that I think I can hear it.

And I think some people right now at this point, if they haven’t already tuned out. Are like, okay, but WTF who cares? Like, why do I need to know or understand anything about, um, neurodivergent? And I’m gonna say much like in my trauma episode where I said to people, if right now you’re sitting there thinking, but I don’t teach people who suffer from trauma, guess what you do because you teach human beings.

And so if a teacher’s listening to this right now and wondering how it’s relevant, um, we can get into some of your pointers in just a moment. But if they’re wondering how it’s relevant, it’s , they’re in your class. They don’t walk in wearing a purple t-shirt or something [00:55:00] saying, I mean, maybe they do, saying, Hey, I I want a purple T-shirt now that says neurodivergent.

Let’s make one, let’s make one. We can start the trend. Okay. , I’m one, , I think that the younger generation is far more kind of loud and proud about it now. It’s because it’s become more commonly understood and, and and, and it’s kind of like the shame and stigma is less than what my father definitely would’ve experienced, or even what I experienced being labeled as learning disabled.

Um, and so I think there are maybe more people that are kind loud and proud about it now, but dear teacher, if you’re listening, you have people walking in your room all the time and you’re dropping classes, or even if you teach registered series that are neurodivergent and you may not know. So I think learning ways to teach so that, like you said, like all of your classes this way, it’s not gonna, , it’s not gonna mess it up for the so-called normal people, right?

[00:56:00] It’s yeah, why wouldn’t you wanna teach in a way that is more,, accessible to more different brains? You were to give us a few little, obviously you have a whole course on this, which we’re gonna talk about in a moment. But if you were to give us a few snippets on like ways that maybe you said you’ve been teaching this whole time,, I have a feeling same, same Z over here, just because that’s how I would wanna learn.

Um, that you now realize, ah, okay, not everybody does this. Yeah. , I think for one, one thing I like that I think is so beautiful about like, people teaching and, and like, they’re gonna attract people who, who wanna practice yoga the way they’re teaching it. , And everyone’s gonna teach different, and like , the neurodiversity, the diversity in general of like humanity.

It’s why I like being a trainer of yoga teachers. The more yoga teachers that are out there, the more people are gonna [00:57:00] find. What they like. , And so , it’s less about, like, everyone should know how to teach two neurodivergent minds and more about as long as you’re not shutting down the experience of mm-hmm.

People who are different than you. Like, and like, the same way, like you don’t have to learn any in yoga and teach in yoga and learn about anatomical variation, but just don’t expect everyone to have the same body as you and don’t expect everyone to have the same mind and perception, like perception of their life or their experience that you do.

And I think if people can just hold that in their teaching, , like, it, it’s not for everyone the way it is for you, whether that’s the body or the mind or whatever. , And then as far as , for me, I find yin yoga so appealing because it, it like.

It lets people find it for themselves. Like the postures, like it lets them explore their body for themselves from their perspective of their body, instead of trying to put something on [00:58:00] them, externally. , This is how it is, this is the alignment, this is what we do. Why can’t you do it that way? It’s , what’s it feel like for you?

Like, where do you feel the things you’re feeling and how intense, , start thinking about that in a refined way. And I think learning about neurodiversity helps people to do that for their mind and their perception. Like what is your mind, which is a bit more slippery. It’s a little, it’s like trying to get a fish to understand the qualities of water that it’s in.

Mm-hmm. It’s like what is your mind and perception like for you? , Like this is like Buddhism and meditations, like bread and butter, but like, you can bring it into yin like very easily. And teaching in general, you’re gonna, if your goal as a teacher and, and I think it kind of should be, is to like help your students get to where they want to go.

Like, and, and not need you anymore potentially, depending on like what it is you’re teaching, because they’ve learned it and now they need to go find another teacher who teaches the other things, , on their journey. If you wanna reach all the students that are coming to you, like neurodiverse approaches, , can make sure [00:59:00] that like you are getting everyone to be served in some way or another.

, And granted, like you’re not gonna have necessarily a neurodiverse way to do like, um, university lectures, you know, like the university lectures are in the context that they’re in. But for like a lot of things, like when I was a school teacher, I just found like setting up the classroom in, in multiple different ways, different stations that serve different needs or different interests allowed students to find their own artwork that they wanted to make or work with, the materials that felt comfort and suitable for them and tactile level.

Um, or like just sitting on the floor, like, and this is again talking about like teaching school kids, but these are examples of like, I used to let kids sit on the floor. There were parts of the room that had no chairs, and it was like, you want to go work in your sketchbook on the floor? Sit on the floor.

Kids would sit under desks. It was all fine. And then some kids wanted and needed to sit in a chair and so they would go find a chair. Um, and in a yoga class, I think there’s things [01:00:00] just like understanding that, like maybe you’ve explained something in a demo,, that if you see kind of the, the looking around or like the not really getting into the pose, maybe someone didn’t understand the way you explained it.

And I treat it a lot like, I, I’ve had a lot of international friends where English isn’t the first language over the years, and I’ve learned, if I know any of the words in the language that’s native to them, , I’d say it in English, which is my like starting point. But then I try to slip in the words that.

That are in their language also. And so learning to almost be a thesaurus, try different words that might connect in the brain in a different way, um, for different people. And then also , like processing time is different. Like the way we, time is a perceptual thing. And if our, if your brain is structured differently, that means you will perceive time differently.

Mm-hmm. And, and again, it’s a slippery thing, like what does that mean? Um, but like, just knowing that like when, when you set students up to start something, maybe they’re [01:01:00] gonna take a few minutes to like really wrap their head around it and get into whatever it is you instructed them to. Or queuing in a class is a good example of this, especially in a ying class where like the minimal cues, it’s like sometimes the teachers will, might be, especially if it’s a new teacher and they’re nervous and they’re like, I gotta fill the time with my words.

Like, and they’re just talking and it’s. Did you even give them a chance to bring their awareness to their breath? Mm-hmm. Which is the first cue mm-hmm. That you steamrolled past? I find that happened to me a lot in class. , So again, from my neuro neurodiverse experience, a teacher would say, bring your awareness to your breathing and do maybe this technique that they would describe.

And then I go , okay, here we go. Let’s try to do that. And then they’d just start talking. Mm-hmm. And I’d be like, I can’t do it if you’re talking. So all those kinds of things, which again, if that’s not your experience, you don’t realize people are still trying to process something and, and they either need more time or silence so that they can kind of run [01:02:00] through it in their head a few more times on their own.

Just lots of things like that, like diversity of how you’re delivering information can be really helpful. Uh, I’m not sure if I just went off on a tangent or No, not at all. That was what you asked me. No, but so what you said sparked something that, um, that I learned when I was first teaching hair, um, but wasn’t necessarily, I wasn’t thinking at the time, oh, this is, you know, gonna make it more comfortable for neurodivergent folks.

I just always understood that there’s different learning styles. Mm. And that there are people who are very visual. There are people who are audio, there are people who are kinesthetic, meaning like they have to do it in order to learn it. Yeah. And then there’s also, , I’m forgetting one audio visual kinesthetic.

Ugh. It’ll come to me in a moment. , And then there’s combinations of, right, like where someone might have, one of those is their dominant learning style, but then right beneath it [01:03:00] is something else. So for example, I’m visual first, kinesthetic second. So when you were talking about university and how, , they can’t really do that in university.

I beg to differ. I think they could. A good teacher can, yeah. Yes. They would have to just re, they would just have to think out of the box and restructure. So for example, one course I took in Chinese medicine school, that was really hard for me, uh, because of the subject matter pathophysiology

but also because of the way that the teacher taught. So he, with very old school, British guy, you would think as an herbalist he would’ve been a little more out of the box, but no. So he would stand up with his presentation and he would go through his presentation. And then we were told, by the way, you’re not tested on the presentation.

You’re tested on the notes that I send out to you, but I don’t send you the notes before class. I only send them to you after. And sometimes not even that day. Sometimes there was times where I’d get the notes two days later and. , I tried going up to him [01:04:00] and just saying, , I am a visual kinesthetic learner and if what I’m gonna be tested on is on the notes, that means while you’re talking about these things, I need to be physically engaging with them in order to learn this.

And so I have a whole weird system that I, maybe it’s not weird, but I learned it myself of , different colored pens, symbols, things like that. And so I will go through the material, I’ll circle certain words, I’ll underline, I’ll put stars beside things. And it, you know, I have my own legend in my brain about this.

By me engaging physically with the material, but then in a very visual way using color and symbols, it helps me to absorb that material. So I have to study less if I can do that while I’m learning it. , But I was never given that ’cause he said. No, when I said, well, I didn’t even tell him I was neuro divergent, I just said learning style.

And he’s like, everybody has all the learning styles. I’m like, okay then, I think that it’s a [01:05:00] fascinating like, oh, go topic. The learning styles. Yeah. Like the, it’s one of the things that’s in the training is,, ’cause early on, , when I was studying teaching to become a teacher, it was one of the, like one of the early books or, or things they had us get was it’s Howard Gardner, uh, I think he’s the one that started, uh, it’s called Multiple Intelligence Theory and I think there’s like eight of them.

I’m gonna have to look at that book. And yeah, there’s some really interesting ones like, um, one is like nature based, like people need some aspect of nature. Like, so, um, yeah, it’s really interesting. And what’s even more fascinating is like recently. Um, I, I saw, uh, not a documentary, maybe it was a YouTube video or something where they, they tried to do a scientific study to find if there were these, uh, different learning styles.

And what, what they found was that there’s technically not, and so at least in this study, but what I always found was that it made me a better teacher to try [01:06:00] to address and incorporate as many of those learning styles real or not into my curriculum as I could. Yeah. Um, because I had similar experiences, like, of like, if someone would explain, okay, here’s a technical thing you have to learn how to do, like, um, and they would show it or, or explain it.

I’d be like, until you give it to me mm-hmm. And watch me do it and correct me. Yeah. I’m not gonna know how to do that. Yeah. And they would explain it over and over and then I’d get it and just be like, I don’t remember what you said to do. Mm-hmm. And they’d have to, they’d explain it again and I’d just be like, just let me do it and correct me as I do it.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so I was like, well. Let me incorporate these because like, it seems to help people, whether or not it’s like neurologically real, it is called a theory. Like not actual, like this is hard evidence. It’s like multiple intelligence theory. Uh, but it, it does really, I think, help make better teachers when you’re thinking in all those dimensions Yes.

About what you’re presenting. Yes. And like you [01:07:00] were saying, when you’re in front of a classroom,

you know, you, you do have those students, right, that are like looking around the room and , there are certain styles of yoga where, and I just gonna poo pooh this for a moment, my friends and I realize those of you that were taught to teach this way, this might kind of push a button but just hang with me and breathe.

Um, that if you were taught that you should be walking around the room just using cues to teach that you’re missing a whole segment of that class that doesn’t learn that way. And , something as simple as showing the pose. You know, a lot of teachers were taught in styles where you don’t even demo.

Now, I’m not saying as a teacher you need to demo and then you need to, especially in you and you need to now be in that pose for five minutes. That’s, that’s a bit much. But like, show some of the variations you can tell. I find you can tell quite quickly who’s visual because they’ll always be lifting their head.

Mm-hmm. And they’ll be looking around ’cause they’re not sure they got it. Um, and so can you, can you [01:08:00] demonstrate, even with my verbiage, I will try to use a word that is a feeling sensing word as well as a, uh, visual word as well as something a little bit more intellectual. So I’ll say the same thing in three different ways.

Mm. So that hopefully I’m lending with most people, um, but then also as a teacher. Get good at like, looking around to see like, who hasn’t this landed for and how could I readdress this in a different way? Yeah. Yeah. And I think also helpful in that regard is like creating environments where students feel comfortable enough being different in a way where, ’cause sometimes you think, oh, if I don’t look like I understand this and just start doing something mm-hmm.

Like, or, or being in the pose, even if I’m not sure what I’m supposed to feel, then it’s, it’s not a fun experience. Like, so trying to make, I try to [01:09:00] bring a lot of humor into the room. I try to, me too, have a lot of self-deprecating, like I’m not some grand teacher in front of the room. It’s like, make people know that , we are human too.

So that , and , when I mess up, like I point it out and I ha , I have a laugh about it. So that if someone is confused about something, they’re comfortable enough to say , I don’t know what’s happening right now, or like, to call you over ’cause they’re comfortable. I think is super important, especially with things like yin that are not like visually alignment based, but like if they don’t understand what they’re supposed to be feeling and exploring internally, like they might not be doing in at all.

Even though externally it may look like, oh yeah, they’re in Caterpillar pose, but it’s like they may be in Caterpillar pose completely masking a lot of pain or something. Right. Yeah. Having a creating a space where people can raise their hand and say, I’m not really sure what I should be doing, or feeling here is super key and just saying that that’s the best way I do it.

I just tell people, you know, I say I’ll [01:10:00] usually, because I try to teach in a really trauma-informed way. If I am gonna move around the room, I’ll, I’ll say, I’m gonna move around the room to help some of your yoga friends get more comfortable. By the way. If you’re not comfortable and I haven’t noticed, like please just twinkle your fingers at me.

I’ll be right there, you know? Yeah. Um, I always joke, y yin yoga teachers should have like a little cat bell around their neck, so if we do move around the room, like funny you mention that I actually have a maah that has a little, it’s made in Bali and it has a little like harmony ball sound to it. So you can actually hear me moving around the room.

Yeah. Yes. It should be mandatory. Yes. A little bell. I love it. Yeah. So then let’s talk about more about your course.

Um, let’s talk a little bit about why you decided to make the course and what’s, what the process has been like, and like, what’s in the course. Like, first of all, let’s start with the name. . Or the working time, the neurodivergent and meditation, yin yoga teacher training. Beautiful. I think beautiful. I sometimes mix up [01:11:00] like what I named it even, it’s quite a bit,, of a name, but I was like, I want these things to be in it.

Mm-hmm. And there are a lot of big words, so I guess we’re just going for it. Um, yeah, so, so that’s the name. It, it happened so fast. I’m trying to even remember like where the seed of it started. Um, I, I think it was like what we were just talking about, like the realization that I’ve already been teaching this way and I was starting to think like, what would my current training program need to address it explicitly.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I started to realize like it was really just a, , a few extra lectures. Um, and, and I wanted to put , a little bit more emphasis on the meditation, which has always been a part of the trainings. That I’ve taught in the past., ‘Cause I feel like it helps Ian teacher so much. , So there, there’s like a few,, like additional lectures.

Um, I restructured some of , the previous content, , like I had a meditation lecture already. I [01:12:00] kind of broke some of that off and fleshed out some of the neurodivergent aspects. Uh, like in regards to meditation. I had a teaching like how to teach in yoga lecture already. I kind of, uh, at like wove in to that lecture, like a variety of, of things or just looked at the slides and information that was there and said like, that’s referring to neurodivergent minds and just put the word in it.

Um, instead of just being like, I like to teach this way, you can too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It was like, I teach this way because of different minds. And it’s useful to different mind. Um, so that’s like , the kind of general overview, but I could talk more about specifics if you, if you have , any in particular.

Yeah, I think, um, I mean, ’cause we’ll probably slowly start rounding this out. Now, it might be really nice, um, to hear more about like, about the course, like how long is it? , Maybe not necessarily dates. ’cause I’m gonna put a link obviously to your website in the show notes. But , because this will be evergreen.

Some people will listen to it [01:13:00] live and some people will find it a year from now or who knows., But yeah, I’ll put of course a link to your course. But yeah, just a little bit about like how long is the course, how does it run, where is it, all that stuff for folks. So it’s, it’s an on demand, course.

, And part of what I wanted to do was a, just to test out, a yin training as a Kickstarter. I was like, is this a platform that like. Because sometimes , as like in training, like facilitator, I don’t know if you have this experience too, but, I would have like a training, not get enough students and then like, oh, you’ve got to kind of like cancel that training and like the refunds to those students.

Like if it’s in person, ’cause I need enough to cover costs to travel there and stuff that if it’s in person, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I was kind of like, can I like do it on Kickstarter? Which if we don’t get enough people to reach the funding goal, like then it’s just understood that like, oh, this didn’t reach the funding goal, so like it can’t be made.

Um, but then I was like, it’d be an interesting way to gauge if there’s an interest in this [01:14:00] kind of content for people. So it was , a mix of experimentation that kind of coalesced., And, it’s a hundred hour course, , that kind of modifies my previous a hundred hour yin course to include this, newer . Perspective , on everything. , And it’s currently gonna be on demand, so I just finished it for those who funded the Kickstarter., And they have access to it. And they have access to me as part of that, like online., There was some streaming components, like for the Kickstarter. I’m determining exactly like how it will be released in the future.

Like right now, the students who, who did the Kickstarter, they finish it at their leisure. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, like whenever they want to get around to it, , they complete the requirements and then they get the certification. , And I think I wanna make it continue to be online just to keep testing out the interest in it.

Um, and to refine it as well. That’s also why I wanted to do the Kickstarter. ’cause I was like, this is a subject, I don’t want to get wrong. Right, right. Because we’re talking about people’s minds and their experience and [01:15:00] perception. , I wanna make sure I understand it and get feedback from this, these early backers of it and students for it.

And so I’ve made some refinements already based on like, how they’ve talked to me about the, like how, what their experience of going through it is like., And it’s a mix of some of them themselves are neurodivergent, some of them are not. So I’m planning to put it as like an evergreen course online probably in the new year.

And then if it does seem to have enough interest online, I’ll start taking it to in person like places and , and see how that goes at yoga studios. , I think that answered what you asked. I’m not sure, I’m just, , curious too. ’cause I’m. I’m curious kind of cat, um, if you had it as like, on demand online, would the students then have an opportunity to like maybe book a Zoom with you or something if they have questions like afterwards or halfway through or, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. , Yeah, , it will have baked into it like a certain amount of one-to-one time and things like that.

, Anyone who purchases the course [01:16:00] will work with me directly. Nice. Yeah. I’ve had a lot of people ask me to put mine on demand because of time zones and mine’s not, it’s not on Zoom, but it’s live.

And I have an attendance requirement even, but that, , that is part of the thing that I think most people don’t realize is that most courses, it sounds like you, you’re open to, to connecting with people, but most on-demand courses don’t then have an ability for you to connect with the teacher and ask any questions that might’ve come up or mm-hmm.

Get any clarification on things.

So tell me about why you decided to do a Kickstarter. Like, was that just so that you’re like, okay, I need to take time off to really focus on this and yet also have the bills that need to be paid? Is that why you decided to do a Kickstarter? , To create the program. And then also then you have your kind of test subjects there that can help and give you feedback.

Was that the idea? Yeah, it was trying out just a new, whole new model, like a whole new paradigm because I [01:17:00] was, I was kind of like finding now that I have a child, like the travel like that I used to do when I was single is, is not as easy to do. Um, and wanting to be sure that I was being compensated enough.

Like it used to be like, oh, we didn’t get enough students to like really make a ton of profit, but like, sure, I’ll take a free trip to like New Zealand and teach for a week. Like it’s like right, you got these opportunities as a single person, it’s like, this is awesome and I’m getting to do what I love teaching, but I wasn’t always making a ton of money ’cause you just never know how many will register.

And so I was like, how would this work? Like where I actually will know before I start the work of making this whole new thing to put out there. Um. Like if it’s gonna pay me. Um, ’cause I think that’s kind of like something that yoga teachers might not always want to talk about, but like the, the finance side of being able to support your life is super important as a totally yoga teacher.

Um, especially now with a kid. I’m like, I really gotta pay attention to this. [01:18:00] Um, and so that was kind of part of it. There were just so many things I was curious about. And also kind of, this is a bit of a side quest, but like, um, I’m getting back into my like illustration roots and I’m gonna start making children’s books, um, awesome on Zen and yeah, like yoga and stuff like that.

So Kickstarter is a really great place for launching those kind of things, which is why I was looking at it. And then, and, and this is what I love about a neurodivergent brain too. I think you touched on it earlier where it was just like, I’m doing this thing over here and this thing over here, and my brain is like, can you put those things together?

And it’s like, yes, you can. You have this new great idea. Yeah. So it’s like that branching that neurodivergent brains do is one of the greatest assets I find, at least in my life. It’s been like amazing in the things that’s helped me connect that I would never, it’s not normal to connect like normal.

Mm-hmm. Um, and, and so that’s what happened with the Kickstarter. It was like trying to get the illustration books onto this platform and then thinking like, why don’t I just put this [01:19:00] thing I already do onto the platform? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I thought it was a really cool approach because, you often think about Kickstarters for things like art or music, , like albums or like books or art.

And I’d never seen a yoga teacher. Do like a Kickstarter and I just thought that was real, like kind alternative in indie of you. It was very cool. , And so how long is, it’s a hundred hours did you say? Yeah, it’s a hundred hour program. And there’s quite a lot of videos. It took a lot longer for me to make than I thought.

So, um, I haven’t actually tallied up like the video count, but there’s always the variables of like, there’s like student assignments and things like that. So, um, like overall it’s content wise. A hundred hours. Yeah, that’s what mine is currently too. A nice round number, it sounds awesome. I’m like, I wanna take it now. I’m, you might just see me at some point , in your room, because I said to somebody the other day, I was like, yeah, when it comes to [01:20:00] continuing ed for me, like, there’s just very few areas that I want to continue to educate myself in as far as yoga, I mean, obviously in, , meditation, things like that.

I mean I’m looking at hopefully doing some medical qigong training because that’s where, yeah, Qigong, yeah. , What I realized through Chinese medicine school when I started needling people, is that I just kept wanting to put my hand there that this separation of the, , it just didn’t.

I’ve done body work training, , not massage, but , Tioga stuff and, you know. Mm-hmm. So it’s like, and then in Chinese medicine we do something called, which is hard to explain, but it’s like a form Chinese body work. And , that’s probably where I’m going, is to take medical Qigong, , because then you learn the forms, but then you’re also learning how to work with people and acupressure , and things like that.

So , I’m just so limited that I’m just like, there’s very few things , out of the realm of kind of yoga therapy, , Chinese medicine, which I will include medical chi go in and kind of yin or, those are kind of my, [01:21:00] my things that I really wanna dive deep in. I’m not really super interested in, you know, learning how to cue a flow class at this point.

Yeah., Yeah, I’m the same. I, I always tell students like, I’m like,, it’s. Funny to say, but I’ve never been that into yoga. I’ve always preferred like Kung fu and Tai Chi. Mm-hmm. And Qigong. And so I’m like, I’ve got my yin stuff is yoga, like yin yoga. Yeah. But then my yang stuff is like martial arts and things like that.

I often think, you know, there’s just a, I just think there’s just a cultural difference and obviously a different word. Like, to me, Qigong feels like a Chinese form of yoga. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, it’s just obviously not, not yoga, not the word yoga. ’cause that’s an Indian word. And and there are philosophical differences between, , Taoism and, the Tantra Indian tradition.

They’re, , they’re pretty glaring differences, but, , but yeah, I think the overlaps are so interesting too though, aren’t they like. Yeah, like , the [01:22:00] tantra and Qigong have like, really interesting kind, or Taoism have some interesting overlap. Yes. As far as the energies and things, yeah. I just feel like the intention is different and the approach is a bit different.

That’s a cool, I, you might see me at one point , in your training, , although that would be fine, although I don’t do so well on, on demand stuff, I have learned this about myself. Mm. And I don’t know if it’s anything to do with the way my brain works or if it’s just that I am an entrepreneur and so I’ll, if I have , free time, I’ll fill it with work.

If I’m not careful, I have to be very mindful of, , because I love what I do, so much of like going, you know, what? Now it’s time to hang out with your partner or go for the walk in the woods, or , I really actually have to, and maybe it’s my brain. , I have alarms on my phone, for example, that go off at a certain time every day that literally say outside time.

Nice. And that’s because otherwise, as we get tunnel Yeah. Hyper-focused on something and hours go by and I don’t realize my foot’s fall asleep and I haven’t eaten and,. Yeah. And so it’s like, I haven’t eaten one man [01:23:00] that’s a killer. Mm-hmm. Haven’t drank drank water. Haven’t I do remember to go pee, but only because I a big accident if I don’t, , and not even remembering if I’ve eaten or not.

Like, like the afternoon comes along and you’re like, was when did I did lunch or breakfast today? Or was that yesterday that I had? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, , so my meals are super scheduled and, you know, I, I schedule in time with my partner, . And have boundaries around, when I’ll work based on how , ’cause he goes to bed early and I don’t, which I just recently learned that, , this night owl business of me is actually a common a DD trait that our circadian rhythm is, can be delayed.

I just was like, huh, how about that? Yeah. , Down the rabbit hole, the more you learn, the more you’re like, oh, that too. , So yeah, on demand doesn’t work super well for me, but I probably like to try to finish the on demand course. Like I just, like, I have to like, put it in my schedule and make it like a time block or it just gets lost in my inbox.

[01:24:00] Yeah. , I’m guilty of that as well. Yeah. I’m definitely interested. One thing that’s helped me a lot with like, and, and before I knew about A DHD, I was just like, this is just me. Like, but like I have these arcs of. Projects or interests that span years. And what I mean is like I’ll take an, I’ll get an interest in something and then it’ll drop off my radar for like months sometimes, some of them years.

, Because I’ve done that too, where I get an on-demand course for myself and then it’s , watch a few videos and then it drops off. And I’m like, okay, I’m gonna finish that Qigong course like five years from now. Like, and it happens though. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I did recently a mindfulness course that was on demand.

It was like a facilitator program. , But it was on demand, but the assignments and the, like group chat support part was live. Yeah. So that kind of helped me to go Oh, right. . Um, but yeah. I’ve definitely sounds like I’m gonna probably be checking out your [01:25:00] course at some point.

We should probably start to round it up because you and I could talk forever. Yeah, I know, right. And,, this is easy. Yes, exactly. I have some little, , questions that I like to ask. Yes. At the end. Some are, light and some aren’t. , I try to do rapid fire.

They rarely end up being rapid. So let’s, let’s see what we do., Coffee or tea? Tea. Favorite ice cream flavor?

Matcha. Ooh, interesting. Yeah. Do you drink matcha as well? Yeah. When I said tea, it’s mostly matcha. That’s what’s in this mug. Nice. I’m with you, my friend. , One thing people often get wrong about me, boy. I think I have a serious face. I have, I have like resting serious face., And I’m not serious at all.

I mean, I am to a degree, but I’m super goofy. So people think you’re kind of intense, but you’re not. I get the feeling they might. Yeah. I think people are a [01:26:00] bit standoff, like approaching me people sometimes. I don’t know if I’m putting off like a, I don’t wanna have small talk vibe or if it’s just like he looks angry.

It’s interesting. We should poll our fellow neurodivergent friends about this, because I often get the, you look so intimidating. Yeah. That’s kinda what, yeah. Yeah, that’s a good word to describe it. I’m like, really? Because I’m not, but okay. , Do you have a pop culture vice and Yes. I realize I’m asking for just one, like a show that you love or a movie series or a book series that you just totally nerd out about.

, I don’t watch it like over and over again, like in that sense, but I’m always in love with the legend of Cora animated TV show. I haven’t seen it like that avatar, like universe, the last Airbender stuff.. I just love it. I think it’s so cool. I’m gonna have to watch it. Yeah. , When I’m not practicing yoga, I am.

Oh, all kinds of [01:27:00] stuff. Um, hanging out with family outside. Is this supposed to be one thing? Yeah. Like I do so many things. I have a DHD. Yeah, I have a DH, adhd. Gimme three. Then I’ll give you three. Yeah. Oh, funny. You’re like, what do you mean? I do all the things. That’s funny., This is a little seams these, but different, , to what surpri might surprise people.

One weird fact about you. Weird fact about me. Huh? That one I don’t even know. That’s stumps me. I mean, I think I’m all weird. I think I view myself as weird and that seems about as weird as you can get. There you go. I just realized not long ago talking to my partner that I, when we’re walking around, I look at house numbers and add them up to a single digit.

Ah, cool. If it’s kind, kind, apparently no one else does that. I have that kind of stuff. Yeah. So that’s what, I have to trace [01:28:00] the contours of things with my eyes. There you go. Every time we’re like talking to people or something, I’m tracing their eyebrows or some shape in front of me somewhere. Yeah. So I asked them just the other, because I, the more I live in this neurodivergent brain, the more I realized that all the things that, like you said, that I just think are me, are partially that.

And so I asked him the other day when we were out for a walk. I was like, just outta curiosity, um, what number did you get for that? I was like, yeah, did you ever, do you ever, and he’s like, no, but he has something and I can’t remember what it is now. But anyway, he has something also that he does count something, but I don’t think he’s neurodivergent.

One thing I wish people knew about yin yoga, and I know I’m saying one, sorry. Yeah, no, I’ll try.

That your body can feel. , Radically different from practicing it regularly. Yeah. What the world needs now is more meditators [01:29:00] preach. And is there anything I forgot to ask you that you would like to add? , Anytime people interview me, I always just like to say, put as much love into the world as you can before you die.

Hmm. Like, that’s, that’s my goal. I’d like to remind myself of it and , I, I don’t know, I think you get one chance at this whole run through and it’s spread the love as much as you can because Yeah. That’s what lasts. That’s beautiful. I often as an internal compass, um, and I’ll say it out loud to people all the time, I even put it in my little Instagram bubble that you have over your head now.

Um, whenever I’m questioning what to do, the answer is always love more. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s like, what do I do in this situation with some other person? It’s like, where’s the love? Yeah, yeah, yeah. , I will of course put a link to, you know, all your stuffs in the, in the show notes, but just so that people have a verbal queuing too.

Where can people find you online? , Uj mu.com. [01:30:00] YUJM u.com. What does that mean? Is my website,, it’s the combination of two things. Like the uj is the Sanskrit, like root for yoga, right? Like, like the hub or like merging. And then mu is Japanese. The Japanese word. That usually means like, no, but in Zen it refers to like emptiness or nothingness.

So I think it was like, I knew there had to be something to it, and I was like, I gotta ask him. Yeah, it’s like merging with emptiness or something. So spell it again. YUJ uh, m u.com. Okay. And then are you on like the Instagrams or anywhere? , I don’t like to be, so you can find me there. You’re like, I’m there, but don’t expect any action.

I’m trying to make a YouTube channel for like my illustration stuff. And, , so probably on, on the website I’ll start putting things for where you can find , my children’s books on Zen and meditation and yoga when they get launched. Brilliant. All right, we’ll say our proper goodbyes when I stop recording, but for those of you [01:31:00] listening and watching, bye for now.

Bye.