Hypermobility and Yin Yoga

 

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Hi Yanis, and welcome back to a yin yoga. Podcast if you’re new around here, welcome, welcome. My name is Nick Daniel, and I’m your host.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I am a yoga teacher. Yoga therapist, yin, yoga teacher, trainer and yoga business mentor. Today’s episode is a guest interview, and I’m going to dive into the bio in just a moment. But before we get there.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: if you have not yet, if you are a returning listener.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: welcome back to my familiar friends.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And if you haven’t yet, would you please do me the honor of rating this podcast. Wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: If you’re watching it on Youtube.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you could take a moment to hit the subscribe and the like, I would be super grateful.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: These things help this rather new podcast grow.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: So just take a moment, pause this right now, and either dive in on whatever podcast. App you’re using, give it a 5 star review. If you’re on apple, you can also leave a written review. If you’re on Youtube, just take a moment to subscribe and to like the video.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: go ahead. I’ll wait.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Okay. Thank you.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: So today’s guest I’m very excited about. And one of the reasons I’m so excited about this guest is because.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: first of all, she’s an expert in her field. But also she is really going to help to dispel some of the myths

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Nyk Danu Yoga: that we often hear around hypermobility.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and more specifically, since this is a Yin Yoga podcast hypermobility in Yin Yoga.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: So our guest today is

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Libby Hinsley. She’s a doctor of physical therapy and a certified yoga therapist who specializes in the treatment of hypermobility, syndromes, and yoga-related injuries.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: She’s taught Yoga since 2,005, and has trained teachers since 2010. Her teaching and practice have been most influenced by the lineage of

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Nyk Danu Yoga: TKV. Desicchajar.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and she has a book called Yoga for Bendy People, optimizing the benefits of Yoga for hypermobility.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: where she explores how people with joint, hyper, hypermobility syndromes can use the tools of Yoga to support their thriving.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and as a person who lives with hypermobile Ellor Stano Syndrome. She’s committed to raising awareness about hypermobility syndromes in the Yoga community and beyond.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: She is also the founder of Anatomy Bytes, which is a monthly membership for Yoga teachers who want to learn anatomy in a fun and supportive way.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: So I’m super stoked to have Libby on the podcast and the next time that you hear from me you will hear me with Libby.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Hi, Libby. Thanks for coming.

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Libby Hinsley: Thanks so much for having me. I’m happy to be here.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I am very excited about this conversation. this, as I was telling you before we hit record.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I think that hypermobility is one of those words in the yogavers that gets just like tossed around like confetti.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And so I’m really looking forward to the clarity that you can shed on this and the nuance, because not only because of your professional credentialing, but then also because of your lived experience. But before we get into all that.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I would love to hear

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Nyk Danu Yoga: a bit about. Maybe the reader’s digest version of your Yoga origin story, starting with maybe like, How did you find Yoga? You know what styles? When did you decide to teach that kind of thing? Sure. So I found Yoga in college

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Libby Hinsley: in 1999, 19 8. Something like that. I took a elective class in college and it was an iang gar teacher. And so that was the original thing that I knew about Yoga and my, you know, initial experience for the first 5 years of of taking Yoga classes regularly. I was taking Ayangar style, Yoga

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Libby Hinsley: and I thought it was cool. I liked yoga, but it wasn’t until I moved to Montana to go to graduate school part one and something totally different that I found in Ashtanga studio, and I started going to do this Ashtona primary series, like many, many days a week. And I really got into that.

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Libby Hinsley: And that’s also when I got into a lot of chronic pain and injury related to my Yoga practice.

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Libby Hinsley: But I really loved the moving and the breathing together. There’s there was something about that. It was really feeding me, even though it was totally wrecking my body actually. And then I moved back here where I live now Asheville, North Carolina, and I started a teacher training and partly I did that because I wanted to meet some people in my new place and build some community. And I wanted to get more into Yoga and learn more about it, because it really caught my attention in these different venues that I’ve been in

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Libby Hinsley: and along that same. Well around that. Yeah. Teacher, training. I read up some books about, and the desiccatar lineage, the Vinyoga lineage. We just had those in our teacher training. And I thought, well, this sounds really interesting, and a friend and I, from training, ended up studying at Desicchar’s place a few years later, in 2,008. We went there in Chennai and spent about 4 weeks.

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Libby Hinsley: and it was really at that time that I discovered this approach to Yoga practice

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Libby Hinsley: that was slow and just, completely different from what I was used to in sort of the power of Vinyasa Ashtanga realm.

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Libby Hinsley: and I just totally fell in love with it, and it was.

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Libby Hinsley: It changed things for me about my body and how I felt in my body. And it was just really just reoriented everything

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Libby Hinsley: that I knew about Yoga, and about how I was practicing and about how I was teaching. So that was a really big moment for me. But in 2,008, and discovering that Vinyoga lineage and that that kind of approach to Asana and Yoga.

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Libby Hinsley: So since then that’s been my main area of interest in the Yoga realm is that slow dynamic stuff that you might find in the video village now, along the way, I actually did teach Ian Yoga for a few years.

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Libby Hinsley: I took a a workshop with Paul Greeley, and, you know, did some other Yin Yoga studies. So I got kind of really interested in that for a while as well. So I’ve dabbled in a lot of different styles of yoga, I would say.

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Libby Hinsley: and it was really in those first, maybe 3 to 5 years of teaching Yoga that I became interested in learning a lot more about the human body, about anatomy biomechanics that led me to pursue ultimately going to physical therapy school. So I’d already been a Yoga teacher for some years at that time, and it was really because I had a really long history of physical challenges myself.

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Libby Hinsley: and just chronic little aches and pains and injuries, and all kinds of stuff related to my hypermobility that I really didn’t know about yet.

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Libby Hinsley: And also I was interested in all my students. Quick questions after class, you know, Yoga students love to bring their teacher all these

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Libby Hinsley: really impossible to answer questions, but they think you’re gonna give them a quick answer after class and they’re never quick questions to answer. But I was really intrigued by them, and I wanted to learn more. You know. Why does someone shoulder hurt? I don’t know. But I was interested. So all of that led me into Pt.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: A couple of things I want to tease out there a little bit.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: first of all, I think it’s really fascinating that you went from a younger to Estanga, like those are so different. And then again, when with the deskic guitar lineage, which is also different than the former 2,

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And I guess I’m guessing that’s kind of where you felt like you actually kind of found your home was in that. Yeah, yeah. I also my Og style. Well, my first few classes were half of, but the majority of my early years were also I younger, Yoga, so I can. I can relate. I never did the Ashtanga thing, because

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Nyk Danu Yoga: for one, as an anxious personality type, it just left me to. It was too vata for me. I was too stimulating. And then also, I really the rubble in me was really annoyed with the fact that you couldn’t move on to a different part of the series unless you had mastered the primary series when I knew that there was just some poses that I would never master based on my body. And I was like.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: well, that’s not fair. It’s like I can do those, but I can’t do this one pose, so I don’t get to move on so wasn’t really my.

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Libby Hinsley: and I think I, you know, probably dodged a bullet there anyways, so many people that I know that practice that for any length of time other than the rare exception just end up so injured.

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Libby Hinsley: totally. It’s just. It’s a weirdly imbalanced kind of series of postures. It it just doesn’t really make sense, you know, for a lot of bodies. But but I found that it was so contrasted to my Iangar experience, and I just loved the relative freedom

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Libby Hinsley: of just movement like I could just move and not be so

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Libby Hinsley: picky about every little thing that was really good at stoking my own neuroses like. That’s what I anger was really good at for me is like making me Ver very much into right and wrong. So it really didn’t serve me at all, not physically, not otherwise. It was just absolutely. It was just happened to be my inroad into Yoga, you know.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I think for me

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Nyk Danu Yoga: the anger was a big advantage at the beginning, because I do not come from a naturally flexible body other than maybe a couple areas of my body. And so just the fact that there were props

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and variations for me was like, Oh, I can play along here. I can actually do these things, you know. But yes, that one size fits all

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Nyk Danu Yoga: is was the biggest problem I had with it, and it was when I discovered Paul Grilly first via DVD. And then via a workshop that I was like.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Oh, cause there were things in my body that never made sense in my younger classes, and I would ask them. I’d say, you know, when you say this, that feels exactly the opposite in my body. Or why am I getting this weird pinching here, or why can’t I go any deeper in this, even though I’m not feeling any stretch, and I just would never get

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Libby Hinsley: yeah until I met Paul. Then it was like, Oh, okay, it’s my bones. Yes, and I really do credit, Paul. Actually, just this one weekend workshop. I did with him, probably in 2,006, I mean, it was a long time ago, but I kind of blame that workshop on my eventual obsession with anatomy. It got me so interested in these

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Libby Hinsley: this variation among human bodies. I remember him saying, You know, this is just actually basic anatomy. This is just

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Libby Hinsley: stuff that any Pt would learn. And I was like.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I want to do that. I want to go to Pt. School, you know. So I really think that really planted the seed for me, I just got so into it. Yeah, yeah, it’s funny how in the Yoga world we think that everybody is the same on the inside. But, like in other traditions you like. Whether it be Pt. Or chiropractic or massage, they would never

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Libby Hinsley: come to that assumption. It’s not. It’s not a thing there’s so many things that actually are only a thing in Yoga world only exist in the Yoga verse.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: So I also thought it was interesting that you mentioned that he kind of that that kind of wet your whistle, I guess, so to speak, for the anatomy cause it was the same for me, I mean I, my very first teacher, training the Anatomy Section was awful useless to be honest. She really only catered to one learning style, and so the rest of us were like

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Nyk Danu Yoga: great.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I don’t understand anything of what you just said. And so that’s actually what helped me pick up Paul’s. It was a DVD. Way back when you know, when we had those and a bookstore was.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I just knew when I graduated that I needed some help with sequencing, and I needed some more anatomy. And so I saw it and just picked it up. And then, like you, said game changer. And I actually, if I

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I don’t know. If I could go back in time and get a tutor.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I probably would have become a physiotherapist. I don’t I know there are areas I would struggle with just with my neuro divergence. So I would have to have

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you know, some help with that. But yeah, I would. I think Pt’s are amazing.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: amazing, Unicorn.

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Libby Hinsley: I just love. I mean, it’s just endless amounts to learn about the body. We just what we know about the body and understand about it is just so minuscule compared to what might be knowable about it. You know, it’s really mostly mystery, I think, and and some things that we can kind of get our heads around. But I just find it fascinating. Yeah, it’s a good fit for me.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: brilliant.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: So that’s kind of a little bit of your your origin story. And now, who are you working with?

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Libby Hinsley: Are you spec? I think you’re specializing in folks that are hyper, mobile? Am I, right? Oh, yeah, at this point. So I have a private Pt practice. I just treat patients one day a week, and then outside of that, I specialize in in teaching anatomy to Yoga teachers. So I have a bunch of stuff going on with that and creating just resources for people with hypermobility. But I’d say clinically, I definitely

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Libby Hinsley: 9 out of 10 people I work with at this point have hypermobility syndromes

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Libby Hinsley: one way or the other, and

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Libby Hinsley: many of them are Yoga practitioners or Yoga teachers are coming out of some sort of a Yoga background, and I’ve also over the last couple of years with my strength. Training coach developed a whole strength training program

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Libby Hinsley: for people with hypermobility. So I’ve really gotten into teaching strength training, which is a whole new realm for me. You know I’ve been teaching Yoga for 20 years, and just in the last year or so started to teach weightlifting. And I’m really getting into it. I love it.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I was actually a competitive body builder before I found Yoga. You were. I was.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I don’t do that anymore. And II am gonna reintroduce some more strength training. But I have to do it at home. I find.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: just for myself, that the gym is actually can quickly become an addiction. So it’s very easy for me to slip from. I’m just gonna go for half an hour a day to like back into that.

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Libby Hinsley: Wow! Balanced way of doing it. So yeah, so I try to keep my stuff at home. You know. Set a time or do some things and then be like, that’s it on with life. Because, yeah, I spent, I spent about 3 years doing way too much of it.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and in the way, when you know, strength. Training for health is very different than strength training for bodybuilders that becomes imbalanced in many other ways. So yeah, I’m glad I gave it up. But I have to always kind of watch my tendency to

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Nyk Danu Yoga: get too far there again. But that’s fascinating. That sounds like a great

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Nyk Danu Yoga: add on for Yoga people.

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Libby Hinsley: Oh, yeah, especially the Bendy ones, you know so many times people are coming to Yoga for some sort of a fitness goal with some sort of a fitness goal. And I mean, there are a lot of reasons to come to Yoga practice. I think fitness is

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Libby Hinsley: not what are the priorities. It’s not really where Yoga practice shines. In my view. There’s a lot more we can get out of it. I think that’s really valuable. But

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Libby Hinsley: I think especially for people with hypermobility doing some strength training, getting under some heavier loads, absolutely supports their Yoga practice and will be protective for them, especially in some of the stuff that we’re going to talk about within yoga.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Yeah.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: One other thing I wanted to point out before we start to get into definitions is that I noticed in my body, and I think I might be. I always hear people say that so many Yoga teachers are.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you know, Bendy, or hypermobile and or so many Yoga people are, and it’s been interesting to me to hear that because that was not my experience, I was not that.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and also my student base has never been that. And I wonder if it’s because like attracts like. So of course, I attracted a bunch of people who were stiff and needed a bunch of props, because it’s my frame of reference.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: so I find that really interesting. But I do remember there being a point in my Yoga journey where I realized

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Libby Hinsley: that going to my full, I’m gonna use this terrible old quote that we will probably both roll our eyes at full expression of the pose.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: that doing that when I was a new Yogi and I was very tight, was no problem, because my full expression wasn’t very big, but as my body shifted

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and that kind of tightness and sort of like body builder body started to like loosen, and I was able to go further. There was a point in my yoga where I realized that me going to the full range

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Nyk Danu Yoga: of my body was probably throwing some things out of whack. And I’m speaking actually in movement forms of yoga not in yen cause I’ve never done yin, and you know.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: sort of a type way like that. But in my active practice I noticed that I was getting these like sort of imbalances, and starting to lose some of my strength, because I was always going to the full expression of what I could do.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: which wasn’t a problem when I started, because again, full expression wasn’t very full. But then, as I started to open up, I started to notice things, and so I started to make.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I also had some experience with a Chigong teacher

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Libby Hinsley: who when he was teaching as Chi gong in Tai Chi.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: he would always give me the side eye, and he’d be like shorten your stride.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: You know he’s like this isn’t warrior pose short, and your stride shorten your stride, and and you know and he kept doing it and kept doing it. And finally, I was like, I feel like, I don’t even have my legs apart anymore. It’s like, I know he goes. I know that’s because you’re used to Yoga, he said, but there’s no strength where you are there.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And I was listening. I remember that just kind of going

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Nyk Danu Yoga: right like in my life functionally. When will I ever need to bring my likes this far apart, unless I’m straddling 2 cliffs and fighting for my life? You know, it’s just like so it really started to shift

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Nyk Danu Yoga: my perspective in my movement based practice to Ok, where in this shape can I feel sturdy? And that’s where I stop.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And that’s enough.

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Libby Hinsley: Yeah, so and then it’s way more functional. You’re right. You know, we’re training. Life happens in mid ranges. And ideally, we’re training for life.

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Libby Hinsley: And unless you literally are a circus performer, you functionally don’t have much use for end ranges, and some people are circus performers, and they definitely need to train all the way to end range for their, you know, vocation

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Libby Hinsley: and advocation. But you know that’s not most of us.

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Libby Hinsley: yes, always be stay more stable in a contained range of motion. That’s where stability starts. That’s where motor control starts. And if we want to expand from there, we can. We have to get it here. First in that middle range

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Libby Hinsley: yeah, and then before we get into

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Nyk Danu Yoga: sort of some definitions of hypermobility. I just want to and we can. We can come back to this if you think it’ll fit better as we go on. But another thing that I have noticed, and

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I don’t know where this comes from, either is that you’ll hear people that are practicing in or teaching in. Say something about yin is so dangerous because you’re going to your.

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Libby Hinsley: I didn’t want to use that word again full expression of the pose, but you’re going to your end range of motion, and I always find that so interesting, because I was never taught in that way, nor have I ever

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Nyk Danu Yoga: practiced it that way. Nor do I train my teachers that it’s that way from most of the books in the courses. Most in trainers will say, Go to 70. Now I’m a yoga therapist, so I back that off I’m in the like. Hey? Let’s find 50 to 60. Let’s hang out there. Let’s notice there’s a whole bunch of other things we can notice about when we’re in this shape that doesn’t require us to go all the way into our full range of motion. Like, can you notice that

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Nyk Danu Yoga: first little initial, tiny, barely their sensation. And can you just linger there and be curious and observe it without feeling like you need to kind of slam all the way into.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: You know the full version of the pose. So I’m not really sure where that

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Nyk Danu Yoga: that myth comes from, and I think part of it also comes from just like in the Yoga verse in general. But there’s a lot of people teaching things that they haven’t studied in depth, and so I think sometimes it can come from that that if somebody doesn’t have

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Nyk Danu Yoga: an in depth yin training, and then they start guiding classes that they they start of what I often say they bring their their young Yoga Yoga attitude into their yin

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Nyk Danu Yoga: classes.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and so their students are like white knuckling it. And they’re like, you know a typing their yoga, and they’re not really getting what I feel like are actually the bigger benefits of yin, which aren’t even really the poses at all. But it’s that time to cultivate interception and have some still and some quiet and

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and all of that.

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Libby Hinsley: Yeah, and that’ll be really relevant.

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Libby Hinsley: the difference between those 2 approaches to in practice would be everything for the hyper, mobile person who has a hard time feeling anything until they are at end range. That’s one of the biggest problems. So you know, helping that person cultivate an ability to sense anything

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Libby Hinsley: in mid ranges. That’s where it’s at. Yeah, they don’t feel anything, so I’d love to hear more about

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Nyk Danu Yoga: your journey to realizing. Oh. I’m I’m hyper, mobile, Umhm.

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Libby Hinsley: Well, I always knew I was hyper mobile, just even as a kid, you know, I did gymnastics. I had this kind of weird, weird stuff, a pass out in elementary school. I had some weird stuff as a kid. I was very active, though, in a lot of sports, and that probably served me really well.

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Libby Hinsley: But yeah, I was always the one on the sports team who was like extra Bendy. I was the one in high school on the tennis team who always had chronically subluxated shoulders, and I was always in Pt. And it never really occurred to me that it might be odd that I was the only one from the tennis team who was always injured. You know, I just this is how it was. And so, you know, different orthopedic doctors would see me. And oh, yeah, you, you know, extra flexible or extra mobile, or whatever they would say in those days, and that was the end of it.

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Libby Hinsley: you know. But it really wasn’t until I got into my twenties and got really into Yoga at that point that I started having a lot of chronic pain. Just everything just hurt. It just was, had a lot of pain. I also had a lot of debilitating anxiety in my twenties, so I would say, that’s really when a lot of the hypermobility symptoms started to emerge more strongly.

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Libby Hinsley: But I just decided I’d do more, yoga, and do more yoga, and do more yoga, and that would probably fix everything, you know, and

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Libby Hinsley: anyway, fast forward

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Libby Hinsley: to my mid-thirties started having babies. I had 2 babies, my mid and late 40 or 30, so 36 and almost 40,

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Libby Hinsley: and

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Libby Hinsley: and that hormonal shift of pregnancy for me really blew up all of my connective tissue disorder stuff in a much, much bigger way, and that is commonly the case. So one of the things that is thought to kind of spur the expression of some of these genetic connective tissue disorders is hormonal shifts. So they thought to be partly hormonally mediated. And that’s why we see them more prevalently in female body people as well.

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Libby Hinsley: So for me, that was definitely the case after pregnancies.

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Libby Hinsley: I you know I had kind of gotten through my thirtys feeling a little bit better than my twenties. But then, after the the babies were born just fell apart, I mean developed, you know, pretty severe.

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Libby Hinsley: a much more severe depression, chronic fatigue.

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Libby Hinsley: widespread myofasual pain, and joint pain like way worse than ever before, and dysautonomia pots, postual or aesthetic techardia syndrome.

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Libby Hinsley: and just a lot of you know, it was really I was really ill. And so the past 7 years, my youngest is 7 now have been really just a slow climb out of that. But it really wasn’t until

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Libby Hinsley: maybe 3, maybe 4 years ago now almost 4 years ago, now that I finally got diagnosed with hypermobile ellers, danlos syndrome, and that was in the midst of that big health collapse that I went through after they were born, and had seen a lot of different specialists and really gotten nowhere, and finally had the great fortune to see the geneticists locally who was still seeing Eds potential Eds Referrals at that time which they won’t see. I wouldn’t be able to see this person now, they wouldn’t take my referral at this point.

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Libby Hinsley: It’s a long story. It’s just impossible to find care for people with these conditions or trying to get diagnosed.

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Libby Hinsley: but anyway, that time, he saw me and he was like duh of course, you have hypermobile Ellers download syndrome. You have a class. Yes, of course, this is what it is, you know it wasn’t. It was a no brainer for him, because he was familiar with it. But none of the other doctors I have seen knew anything about it wasn’t on their radar at all.

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Libby Hinsley: So so anyway, that was, you know, fairly recently, and that is when I pretty much turned all my attention towards that and started to realize already, and for years I’ve been treating this patient population already in my Pt. Practice, already treating people who are primarily hypermobile

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Libby Hinsley: symptomatically across multiple systems of the body. It’s not just a musculoskeletal issue.

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Libby Hinsley: And so it just sort of became my thing at that point. And I really got more interested in specializing. And, you know, offering some resources to this very profoundly underserved population.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I would love to get some actual definitions here from you. Because I think I was saying to you,

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Nyk Danu Yoga: before we hit record that

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Nyk Danu Yoga: the term hypermobility in the yogaverse is sort of tossed around like confetti and that there’s a lot of yoga teachers out there who are telling their students. They’re hypermobile by like looking at them in one pose.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And you know we can talk about.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you know, first of all, that that’s beyond your scope of practice to be diagnosing somebody.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: But I think that sometimes people confuse

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Nyk Danu Yoga: gee! That person has more range of motion in their joints than I do with

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Nyk Danu Yoga: actual hypermobility.

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Libby Hinsley: Yeah, it’s tricky. And the definitions are tricky. And here’s what makes it more confusing that not everybody uses these terms in the same way. So we can. You know I can lay out. And that’s the way that I use these terms, mobility and flexibility, hypermobility and and I use them in ways that are as consistent as I can be with kind of the base of evidence around hypermobility syndromes. Okay?

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Libby Hinsley: And hypermobility really is just a descriptive term. It’s not a pathology at all, and all it describes is literally a joint ability to move more than is considered normal. Right? So every joint in the body has what we consider normal or typical ranges of motion. And there’s usually a range of normal, too, in that.

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Libby Hinsley: What’s unfortunate about so many Yoga teacher trainings, and it’s really not a failure of theirs. It’s that there’s a lot to do in a very short amount of time, and

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Libby Hinsley: you know it doesn’t get covered is

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Libby Hinsley: Yoga. Teachers don’t know what to expect out of a normal human body. They don’t know what a normal hip looks like moving. They right so. And oftentimes they see people with excessive ranges of motion, and they expect that that’s normal. And so, you know, it’s like visually, things get really a skew for the Yoga teacher easily. But anyway, hypermobility by itself just means that that

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Libby Hinsley: joints move more than is considered normal. Now, when you have. You might have that in one joint due to an injury, or a surgery, or something, or just some fluke thing in your body, right? Or you might have that in only your peripheral joints that’s peripheral hypermobility. You might have that in a lot of joints 5 or more would technically qualify you as generalized hypermobility.

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Libby Hinsley: But again, yeah, again, that doesn’t mean there’s

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Libby Hinsley: any symptom, you know, presentation associate with it, or there’s any pathology, because.

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Libby Hinsley: as you know, certainly studying the bony variations. A lot of different things are gonna contribute to what kind of range of motion someone demonstrates in their joints. We have the shapes of our bones, the angle of you know, with

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Libby Hinsley: which the bones put together. Where’s our acetabulum pointing, is it? Pointing kind of to the side or kinda to the front right? All of that is gonna make a difference to what we can do with those joints. And then we’re also getting some contribution from our muscular system. What’s what kind of tone is the nervous system maintaining in our muscles?

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Libby Hinsley: Are they pliable? Are they able to relax when they are supposed to? Are they able to contract when they’re supposed to? Are they really inflexible? That’s gonna limit our range or allow more range. And then, thirdly, we have the more passive structures, the collagenous connective tissues, the joint capsules, the ligaments, the tendons, the fascia.

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Libby Hinsley: and that’s that that laxity, the level of laxity or floppiness, or the amount of give that those collagen tissues have is gonna yield a big could be a big factor in how much mobility we have.

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Libby Hinsley: So II just mentioned 2 words, mobility and flexibility. So let me go ahead and kind of define those the way that I use them, and they’re not that easily separated. So this is a bit of a contrived

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Libby Hinsley: differentiation.

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Libby Hinsley: But we’re gonna I use mobility to mean the the motion that is available to a joint, thanks to shape of bones and connective tissue laxity

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Libby Hinsley: stuff happening at the joint. Okay? And then flexibility. I’m gonna use to mean stuff happening with the muscles that are around the joint. How pliable, how much, how well can we actively use our range with our muscles? And is there? Increased muscle tone that’s limiting our range. Any of those

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Libby Hinsley: things right? That’s under the control of your nervous system.

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Libby Hinsley: So very often people say, Oh, you’re hyper, flexible, and what they mean is that you have a lot more range of motion than you know is normal. So they kind of mean the same thing as hypermobile, but they’re often used interchangeably, and I again, I separate them out in a way that is most consistent with what I see in the literature on hypermobility syndrome. It’s

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Libby Hinsley: it’s contrived. But that’s that’s what I go with.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Yeah, ever since II learned about hypermobility syndromes. I stopped using the word hypermobility to describe anybody who, I wasn’t sure

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Nyk Danu Yoga: had those syndromes, and just said, You have a

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Libby Hinsley: larger joint range of motion than average. There you go.

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Libby Hinsley: Tendency for us to pathologize

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Libby Hinsley: more than normal range of motion, because in in humans there is a variety of variety of presentations, a range of motion. So it’s it’s really not. We don’t need to pathologize it. But when it is symptomatic.

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Libby Hinsley: then basically symptomatic hypermobility equals a hypermobility syndrome and what we would expect to see are symptoms across many systems of the body. Any and all system of the body is going to be impacted. We usually are going to see that in cases where the hypermobility is

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Libby Hinsley: due to some genetic differences in the collagen tissues, because collagen is everywhere. And you know, differences in the structure and function of collagen

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Libby Hinsley: or other

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Libby Hinsley: parts of the connective tissue matrix. And it’s not that well understood. Actually, are going to lead us to have all kinds of of symptom presentations, not just muscular, skeletal, not just joint problems, potential dislocations, subluxations.

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Libby Hinsley: myofasual pain, joint pain, but also very commonly gut issues, because our gut lining is also made partly of collagen. But you know, cardiovascular issues are blood vessels also made a lot of collagen. So we’re going to see issues across the body

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Nyk Danu Yoga: when I first became aware of

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Nyk Danu Yoga: ellar stano syndrome was actually, I had a student who had already been practicing with me

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Nyk Danu Yoga: by the way, for quite a while before she told me.

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Libby Hinsley: Unfortunately,

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And you know she I only saw her a few times a year, because she actually lived in a different province. But then they had a vacation spot, so they would come, and she would come to my class every day that I taught.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and she came up to me afterwards and and said, You know I have Ellerstano’s syndrome. And at the time I actually didn’t know what that was, and I had been teaching for

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Nyk Danu Yoga: gosh! I don’t even know, probably

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Nyk Danu Yoga: at least 15 years at that point, and had never heard

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Libby Hinsley: that term before.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and so I just kind of, raised my eyebrow and went, okay, I’m not that familiar with that. Let me go do some research. And I went home and did the Googlings and the Youtube and found some videos and was like, Oh, okay. And then, when I found out that you know.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: some of the side effects of Ello’s downro syndrome can be as severe as joint dislocations. Things like that, you know. When I saw her next, I said, you know, because she was coming to my end class. And I said to her, You know this might not be the best practice for you, like

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I’m glad you’re here, but you know a practice where you’re building strength

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Nyk Danu Yoga: would actually serve you better

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Nyk Danu Yoga: than coming to this yin practice. And she looked at me and she said, Yah.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I know, and I’m careful. But you’re my teacher. So that’s why I’m here.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: So I was like

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cause I don’t teach

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Nyk Danu Yoga: these more sort of dynamic strength building forms of Yoga. I pretty much teach all the quiet stuff like the nigra and the written and the restorative. And so I said to her, as like, Okay.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: so what we’re gonna do for you then is when you come to my yin class for you. It’s gonna be restored. We’re gonna be putting all the blocks and blankies under everything, so that you’re never in your full range of joint motion, and that you’re held and supported so that you can still be present

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Nyk Danu Yoga: to my class. For whatever reason

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you said, I’m your teacher. I probably should have asked her more details. But I was I, you know, sometimes when you get a compliment. You’re just kind of frozen for a moment. So I didn’t ask her.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: You know, we’re gonna just support your needs with blocks. We’re gonna put blankets here. So you’re gonna grab 2 of all the props that I mentioned, and that’s how we can make so make sure that you can be here. You can get the nervous system response of being here that you can get the connection with myself and with the community. But in a way that’s safe for you. And so that’s what we did.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Basically, everything just had props. She was like nowhere near her range of motion. And I did try to get her to, you know.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: go see a trainer or a physio, and I think she had one back home just not when she was visiting where I live.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And so that seemed like a good fit.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Now we before I knew, and before she told me we never had any problems in class. She never did, thank God, dislocate anything, or have any of those issues, and that might be because of just who I am as a teacher and always encouraging people like

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you don’t need to do more than 50 to 60% here, like, the point isn’t about the pose. It’s can you observe your mind while you’re here. So maybe it’s because of the way that I teach that she was able to be safe or just sheer dam lock. I’m really not sure.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: but I remember. you know, thinking, how could I have been teaching

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Nyk Danu Yoga: for as long as I have, and only have ever heard of this once. So how common is it?

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Libby Hinsley: A really good question it’s and it reminds me of Pt. School that II went through in 2,009. That was the first time I’d ever learned about ellers download syndrome, and I learned very, very little about it, even though people with Eds are gonna hang out a lot at Pt. But you know, at that time, and it’s still now it is

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Libby Hinsley: taught to medical practitioners as though it’s a very rare condition, and we’re learning now that it is not rare at all one form of it.

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Libby Hinsley: So in my mind, I had this image of someone walking it through the door, literally being unable to walk across the room without dislocating all of their joints. I mean, it was really like severe in my mind, you know, and that’s

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Libby Hinsley: usually not at all what it looks like. I’ve never dislocated anything.

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Libby Hinsley: not everyone who has a hypermobility. Syndrome dislocates their joints. I’ve had chronic subluxations, which is a partial dislocation. You have had plenty of that, but thankfully, I’m not a dislocator, at least not yet. And I hope that I’m not going to be. But everyone who has these hypermobility syndromes, and I’ll talk more about

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Libby Hinsley: you know the prevalence and everything and moment has their own pie. I call it like they have their own pie graph, and in their pie they’ve got these different pieces of the pie, and that’s their different symptom cluster and some of the people in their pie. They’ve got a big piece that’s like joint instability. Joint instability is not the same as hypermobility. Someone can have a lot of range and be quite stable throughout their range. Joint

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Libby Hinsley: stay approximated right? The the ball stays in the socket the whole time. It’s nice and stable, well controlled, and all that. Someone else might have joint instability. These things come apart too easily. They dislocate, they subluxate

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Libby Hinsley: so someone with hypermobility syndrome, certainly more at risk for joint instability and dislocations, and all of that. But so they may have a piece of pie. Someone else has a lot of myofasual pain kind of fibromyalgia style, appearance. And they may have Gi issue. It’s gi issues and mental health issues as their pie pieces. So it. It’s just. There’s so much variability among people who have the same conditions, and that is one of the things that I think has made it so difficult

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Libby Hinsley: to have these conditions be understood and recognized and diagnosed. They’re very poorly diagnosed. So we’ll talk a little bit more about Eds Ellers download syndrome. That is a collection of 13 different types of

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Libby Hinsley: connective tissue disorder that are genetic connective tissue disorders. And they’re all very rare, actually, except 1 one type is not rare at all, and that is the hypermobile type. Now, strangely enough, all of the types, feature, hypermobility.

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Libby Hinsley: So it’s just a weird, naming issue. But and they feature skin, hyper extensibility, really stretchy skin and impaired wound healing and scarring and things like that.

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Libby Hinsley: So skin issues

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Libby Hinsley: but they all impact different types of collagen and some different genetic kind of defect in the collagen world. And there are a lot of different types of collagen and many, many, many, many genes that are responsible for its assembly and function. So it’s really complex tissue. But the hypermobile type of Ellers download syndrome is by far the most common. It’s like accounts for 90% of all cases of Eds.

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Libby Hinsley: It is very poorly diagnosed.

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Libby Hinsley: So it’s hard to know the prevalence. But it has a sister diagnosis called hypermobility, spectrum disorder, which is essentially exactly the same thing as hypermobile eds. It’s just a person who doesn’t meet the current diagnostic criteria

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Libby Hinsley: for hypermobile Eds. Now, of all those 13 types I mentioned of Eds, all of them have a genetic molecular marker that you can. You could do a blood test for them.

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Libby Hinsley: except the one that we care about the most, or we don’t care about it the most. But it affects the most people, I should say, and that’s the hypermobile type. We don’t understand it well from a genetic perspective yet. So we cannot diagnose it with a blood test. It is diagnosed instead. Yeah, it’s the only one that lacks that. And there’s research ongoing. Currently as we speak, you know, that’s

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Libby Hinsley: identifying candidate genes that may be responsible for heds. And there’s actually some paper in Peer Review right now, waiting to be published. So I’m hopeful that we’ll learn more about it really soon.

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Libby Hinsley: But all the other types you can diagnose via a blood test. But the hypermobile type you cannot. It’s a D, it’s diagnosed by a clinical checklist. And literally, you just check enough of those boxes, and you qualify for the diagnosis. One of those boxes is that you have to rule out any other potential condition that might present. Similarly. So, it really requires a doctor who

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Libby Hinsley: knows any of that. They just. They have to know about the diagnostic criteria

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Libby Hinsley: period. Many of them have no idea that that even exists. They they literally just don’t know anything about it, not any fault of theirs. They just were not trained about it. Period.

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Libby Hinsley: So so that’s the hypermobile Eds. Those criteria are actually under revision right now. So that

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Libby Hinsley: list will change, and probably in the next year.

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Libby Hinsley: because it hasn’t. It’s not capturing the people that it’s meant to capture quite yet, I think. And there’s a sister diagnosis which is symptomatic hypermobility where all the other genetic connective tissue disorders have been ruled out. But you don’t meet the criteria for hypermobile Eds. You don’t check enough of those boxes. Then we’re gonna give you a different diagnosis. And that’s called hypermobility spectrum disorder.

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Libby Hinsley: And it’s not a lesser diagnosis. It doesn’t mean anything less. It doesn’t mean you have less severe symptoms. It just means you don’t check all these boxes. You just have a different label for it, but they are considered exactly the same thing for clinical purposes, for treatment purposes.

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Libby Hinsley: Again, they’re not. One of them doesn’t carry more or less weight. And there was a population study in Wales, not like whales that swim in the ocean, but like the country whales. Whenever I bring this up, people like whales have hypermobility to see, and I didn’t go there at all. I knew you meant Wales as in in the Uk. Yes, like no, I mean Wales. But anyway.

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Libby Hinsley: this is a few years ago, and it was a study that looked at the prevalence of the combined

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Libby Hinsley: hypermobile eds and hypermobility spectrum disorder. Those 2 put together right? So they considered those one thing, and they looked at diagnosed prevalence in that country, and they found it to be one in 500.

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Libby Hinsley: Okay, people who have that now

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Libby Hinsley: number one, even if it was just one in 500 people. That’s not a rare condition that doesn’t qualify for a rare condition at all.

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Libby Hinsley: But this was a diagnose prevalence, and we know that the diagnosis rate is just really low. Some would estimated at about 5. In other words, about 5% of the people who have these conditions have been diagnosed with them.

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Libby Hinsley: Alright. So when we put that sort of lens over it, we could potentially be looking at some experts in this realm estimate we could be looking at up to 10 of the general population may have a hypermobility syndrome. One of these heds, Hsd as a lot of people.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: That is a lot of people. I remember hearing you on a, on a wish, I could credit the podcast

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Nyk Danu Yoga: it was probably the Yoga teacher resource. It was probably midose, but I could be wrong.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and I remember you just kind of talking, and, Mitch, maybe we can do in a moment about some of the kind of criteria that people look at like the checklist. And I remember thinking.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: well, I have like 2, maybe 3 of those does that mean?

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And I was like, Oh, but I only have one of those in one joint in my body. And then I was like. Well, and you know anxiety could be a whole bunch of things. And so I think that, you know, sometimes I I’d love to do a little bit of a checklist. But I think also sometimes when we do that, that people can then start sort of self diagnosing and getting worried, you know.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: before we get into that. So it is possible for somebody to have maybe one joint. That is.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I’m gonna just use the word hypermobile, according to the lay term or maybe a bit of instability, or a bit of discomfort or pain in that joint at full range of motion.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and not be

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Libby Hinsley: on the spectrum. Right? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because there’s so many reasons why someone might have some joint pain, you know.

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Libby Hinsley: even if they’re I mean, there’s just so many reasons. Really, we for a hyper mobility syndrome. We’re really looking at like a big cluster of multiple system involvement, a lot of dots that probably people haven’t connected, and they also have hypermobility. Now, what’s tricky, and points back to your

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Libby Hinsley: your point earlier about how difficult it is to just observe someone moving and say, Oh, you’re hyper mobile, because very

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Libby Hinsley: commonly people with joint hypermobility have a whole lot of muscular tension. They have some chronic background muscle contraction going on

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Libby Hinsley: all the time

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Libby Hinsley: as a compensatory kind of response to to keep that joint stable correct, and sometimes that muscular tension is so significant that it actually might limit their range of motion.

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Libby Hinsley: so their hypermobility might actually be sneaky. It might be hiding. You might not even see it, because they’re so

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Libby Hinsley: tight in their muscular system. and they and it’s often the cause of fatigue, because it’s exhausting to be contracting muscles all the time, you know, and they often are

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more able to relax and sort of

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Libby Hinsley: function. Normally, when they are much stronger, we know that people with hypermobility syndromes tend to be weaker at baseline and have less muscular endurance. And yet this is a body that that actually lacks adequate tension. It lacks passive tension, so it has to

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Libby Hinsley: step up the active tension, which is our muscles. So it’s a really interesting conundrum there.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Yeah, I remember the podcast that I heard you that same one. So I’ve always been told that I have hypermobile knees.

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Libby Hinsley: Hmm! And when I look back at pictures of myself, even as a toddler, I’m like.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: hmm! That seems like.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you know. The only time it has ever posed a problem. And so I’m never sure if it’s like

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Nyk Danu Yoga: cart before the horse or the other way round for years and years I did only occupations where I stood for a living. and I would often just kind of like lock my knees, and that was fine. For years I never had any knee, pain, any joint pain. I never had any injuries or anything.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: But there was 1 point when I was early on in teaching Yoga, where I was also doing a side hustle as a barista.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and for whatever reason, just that job, I think it was because I was standing and stationary, whereas in my previous jobs I was a hair stylist. I’d bartended I’d waitress. I was standing, but I was moving. I wasn’t just planted, and when I would get planted at the till

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Nyk Danu Yoga: over time the

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Nyk Danu Yoga: the muscles

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Nyk Danu Yoga: or tendons, I’m honestly not sure on the backs of my knees from standing there, for that amount of time would get so sore they would start burning and standing when I was not working, became. There was probably only about a month period there where I was like. If I went to a concert, I had to sit down because I was just like. And what I what I noticed is that if I actually just altered the way that I stood as far as where my feet were placed.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: it all went away so naturally I have a decent amount of external rotation, also quite a bit of internal rotation. But if I stood in slight external rotation. I could no longer just like unconsciously sort of lock my knees into that position where it was uncomfortable. And then I was like, Oh.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: okay. And that became eventually

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Nyk Danu Yoga: what sort of fix the pain? Was just me breaking my habits of the way that I’ve been standing for years now. The only time that it will ever bother me, and it’s more on one side than the other is. If I’m doing a seated forward fold, I’ll often roll up a blanket and tuck it behind, especially my right knee.

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Libby Hinsley: but that’s literally the only joint. And so when I remember when I was hearing you, I was like. Well, does that mean that I cause I can tell you there’s no hypermobility going on in my shoulder joint. That’s for damn sure! You know I’ve got like incredibly limited range of motion in my shoulders.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I was so grateful when I found out that was my bones, not just tight muscles. I was like, oh, so I’m never gonna be good at shoulder stand. Oh, well, okay.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: right? And it’s not a character flaw. Who cares? Yeah, exactly. And then the only other symptom that I had kind of had from that list was anxiety.

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Libby Hinsley: But of course, anxiety can be linked to I mean childhood trauma, and well, like the world we live in and all the things. Anxiety is an appropriate response to. You know modern life in in a way. And yeah, you’re right. And anxiety isn’t an official diagnostic criteria. It’s just one of the most common overlapping conditions with Heds and Hsd.

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Libby Hinsley: so like some of the things on the official diagnostic criteria for ellers download, syndrome, hypermobile type are things like chronic pain.

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Libby Hinsley: History of joint dislocations

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Libby Hinsley: long wingspan like really long arms relative to height, so that ratio being abnormal. some pelvic organ, prolapse, history of abdominal hernias, history of dental crowding high dental pallet

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Libby Hinsley: there’s even mitral valve. Prolapse, I think, is still underway. Dilation is still on there. I think that’s one of the things that may be coming off. I don’t know, but it’s not as commonly in this population as it once was thought

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Libby Hinsley: on really long fingers that can wrap around your wrists really easily. Things like that. It doesn’t actually include and it also includes your your pom, how hyper bubble you are, according to like the bite and scale which is the most common quick screen. If hyper mobility, it’s not

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Libby Hinsley: without its flaws, but it’s what we most commonly use.

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Libby Hinsley: But that diagnostic criteria does not include what we know are some of the most common overlapping Co. Occurring conditions, including anxiety, including fibromyalgia, or it does include chronic pain. But many people think sometimes fibromyalgia is actually maybe a misdiagnosis for this, because some research shows that a lot, a lot of people with a fibro diagnosis or have hypermobility

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Libby Hinsley: also things like this autonomia. You know the dizziness, the postural or the static and heart rate blood pressure issues. That’s not officially on the diagnostic checklist, but it is one of the most common things

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Libby Hinsley: that we see in this population of people with. Can you explain what that is? Just for those who are not met speakers. Yeah. So so pots. PO. Ts stands for postural or the static Tacha cardio syndrome, and that’s just a whole bunch of fancy words and all it means is that your heart rate goes really high when you stand up in gravity.

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Libby Hinsley: So at rest you might be fine, or you might even have a bit of a high heart rate at rest. But when you stand up within that first 10 min of standing, your heart rate goes up by at least 30 beats per minute. That’s the criteria, and you and it should only go up like 15 beats per minute. So like the the heart rate really kind of skyrockets in these people.

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Libby Hinsley: and the reason being it could have a number of contributing factors actually. But a lot of Bindi people. What happens is because their blood vessels are also made of faulty. You know lax collagen

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Libby Hinsley: when they stand up, blood tends to pull in the lower body in these saggy vessels that don’t hold adequate pressure, they just it just sags. And then, in response to that, the sympathetic nervous systems is like.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I better crank things up because I still need to get oxygen to this brain. So I’m gonna increase this heart rate really fast so that I can get some profusion up here where it’s really important.

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Libby Hinsley: And so there’s this sympathetic overdrive that compensates for essentially blood pooling and saggy vessels.

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Libby Hinsley: And so what it feels like is heart palpitations, dizziness. It can feel like a panic attack, can feel like anxiety. But that’s one of the most common things.

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Libby Hinsley: That often people have, and so they usually run a little low on blood pressure, so they might like get dizzy when they stand up. Anyway, they just a little bit of a difficulty regulating heart rate and blood pressure. That’s really what dysautonomia means. It just means some dysfunction in the autonomic nervous system that is regulating some of those more automatic functions like

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Libby Hinsley: heart rate and blood pressure.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Right? So you mentioned a moment or 2 ago?

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Libby Hinsley: that checklist. I can’t remember what you called it the checklist. I’m thinking it’s the one where you can do the thumb, the bite and scale or the scale. Yeah, and it’s a 9 point scale that often is used as a quick screen for hypermobility, and it’s like, can you touch your thumb down to your forearm, push your pinky finger way past 90 degrees like mine. That’s not normal. Do your elbows hyper, extend, do your knees hyper, extend, and can you touch the floor with your palms your hands

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Libby Hinsley: and with your knees straight. That’s it. It’s those things palm, the floor, elbows, thumbs, pinkies.

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Libby Hinsley: and you get a point for each thing that you can do

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Libby Hinsley: totals 9. And if you score a 5 or higher for people under the age of 50, that’s generally considered the cut off, although, interestingly enough, not everyone agrees on the cut off either.

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Libby Hinsley: But if you score 5 or more, you’re considered generally hyper, mobile, and if you’re over 50. You just need to score a 4 or more technically to be considered generally hyper, mobile. But it’s not without its flaws, right? So the the bait and scale like doesn’t look at our shoulders at all. It doesn’t really look at our hips at all. That forward fold many people think it needs to be thrown out anyway.

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Libby Hinsley: because it really just looks at Lumbo. Sacral mobility more than anything. And so many hyper, mobile people have

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Libby Hinsley: incredibly tight hamstrings like reflexively

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Libby Hinsley: tight hamstrings that actually limit their ability to do that one, even though they are hyper, mobile. So you can’t be fooled by a low score on the Byten scale. That’s what I tell people. I’ve seen people who are very clearly, generally hypermobile and symptomatic, who score like 2 or 3 on that scale.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I remember when I had heard you being interviewed, I’ve I’d written down that, and then I googled it, and so I did the test, and I only one, and that’s the knees. And again, I’m I’m always, always wondering if that’s just due to my core

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Libby Hinsley: lifestyle, you know. Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, bodies are weird, you know, bodies just do weird stuff, and sometimes we just can’t explain it. I don’t know. Your knees are, you know, put together in a way that makes them, Bendy. But you know you don’t really see it in other places in your body. Necessarily.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: it’s so interesting. So

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Nyk Danu Yoga: the other thing that I think that maybe we need to just

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Nyk Danu Yoga: hammer down one more time, because I can always hear whenever I’m doing these interviews, because I’ve been working with teachers, so I can always hear their voices in my head. And

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Nyk Danu Yoga: one thing that I have noticed that there is this huge tendency for Yoga teachers to do is to look at themselves, their colleague, their Co. Worker, their student.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and tell them

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Nyk Danu Yoga: your hypermobile.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and I think you and I talked a little bit about scope of practice. And so for the the lay person listening to this or the the teachers, who, because the yogaverse is a bit of the Wild Wild West. There isn’t this focus on

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Nyk Danu Yoga: scope of practice. and I feel like the only time that I heard it

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Nyk Danu Yoga: was when I took my Yoga therapy training. There was a way bigger focus on it then.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: But I never, you know, cross those lines anyways, because I’m I’m just always very like I’m very okay with saying, I don’t know, like I don’t expect to know everything. And I’m totally fine just telling people. Yeah, I don’t know. You should talk to a chiropractor or physiotherapist about that, you know, so I’ve never fallen into that trap of sort of pseudo diagnosing people.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: but I’m wondering if you can speak a little to that to. Maybe they’re well intentioned when they’re handing out this

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Nyk Danu Yoga: word like confetti.

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Libby Hinsley: Yeah.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: there’s more to it than just that person’s hips look more flexible than mine.

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Libby Hinsley: Yeah, there is more to it. And you know, someone can display a lot of range of motion and really be okay, really not have any problems like, really be stable and not be symptomatic even.

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Libby Hinsley: So. And the other thing I think we talked about a little earlier is.

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Libby Hinsley: it’s so like as a Yoga teacher, unless they have a lot of additional training, say in something medical or rehab.

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Libby Hinsley: They haven’t. They don’t really know what normal bodies look like moving around right? They just had this little slice of experience seeing Yoga people move around and depending on what kind of a Yoga setting they’ve been in.

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Libby Hinsley: you know, that may look to. Maybe they’ve seen your people right who are normal humans like you described. Right? My students are not Bendy folk. Yeah. And but you know with me for me growing up in my yoga world that I kind of came up in. It was a bunch of Bendy people, and I didn’t have other experience. I didn’t have any anatomy training to know what do normal hips do? How much do they externally rotate. What’s normal range in motion for the shoulder I don’t know. No one taught me that.

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Libby Hinsley: So what I

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Libby Hinsley: saw visually in Yoga settings was a lot of excessive range of motion that I just assumed was normal, because that’s all I had ever seen. You know what I mean, and I think that’s the case for so many Yoga teachers.

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Libby Hinsley: So they they’re just visually not really tuned in to to know what is reasonable to see in a body. Is that actually a demonstration of something excessive or something very restricted? You know, it’s visually we’re just a skew a little bit.

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Libby Hinsley: But to see someone’s hips move a lot. Yeah, that just means their hips

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Libby Hinsley: have more than normal range of motion or more than the other students in the class. You know. That may be all it is. It could just be relative

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Libby Hinsley: amount

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Libby Hinsley: compared to who else is in the class? So we don’t really know much information. But what a Yoga teacher is in a position to do is over time as they get to know a student, and as a student shares with them potential challenges that they’re having.

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Libby Hinsley: that teacher can ask more questions and suggest, huh? You know.

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Libby Hinsley: that sounds like kind of consistent with what I’ve heard

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Libby Hinsley: about hypermobility syndrome. You should talk to your doctor about that, or you should talk to your physio about that, or you know that could be interesting to explore something along those lines. But that’s gonna come out of a longer term conversation. I think something you’re not going to see in your average dropping. You see, someone. Occasionally. This would be, especially if you were working privately with someone. You might notice these things, or it’s a long term student.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I’m always a big proponent of telling the teachers I train that you should have so many business cards in your little yoga pants pocket. You know a physiotherapist that especially ones that have different niches, therapists, chiropractors.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you know, way back. When I was a newer teacher, I used to say at the end of class, if you have any questions, let me know, and then I would get all kinds of questions, and I’m not qualified to answer, or that even with my Yoga therapy training I probably could answer, but I can’t answer in 5 min after class without a private session with you. And so I switched it to saying, If you have any questions about our practice time together, please come up because I was just like

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Nyk Danu Yoga: that is for a nutritionist. That question is for a chiropractor. You need a physiotherapist for this. I am not a doctor like I just found I was saying that so often, and I mean, I suppose it’s a compliment that our students

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Libby Hinsley: in that way. But it’s also incredibly dangerous. It is. It is incredibly dangerous. You’re exactly right. And the best thing that you can practice saying is a Yoga teachers I don’t know, and I say it all the time, because sure, could I have an idea if we spent an hour together, and I evaluated you. Sure. But right now that’s not happening. And I don’t know. Period. It’s not ever a quick answer. Even if you do have the skills to evaluate and diagnose something that’s not the time to do it.

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Libby Hinsley: So it is dangerous. And what’s unfortunate it is, I think so many Yoga teachers feel so much pressure that they’re supposed to know the answer. No, you’re not a donor, they’re not supposed to know. And so I just, I really encourage Yoga teachers to just take that load off of them.

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Libby Hinsley: It’s it’s just undue stress, really.

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Libby Hinsley: And I think it’s because teachers want to be so helpful like we are helpers, and I always say you’re still helping. You’re referring them to somebody who can absolutely help them. I have a specialty or a niche in in back pain. That’s one of the things I’ve been working with the most. And so if a student hears that sometimes they will come up to me after class and say

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Nyk Danu Yoga: so this and that, and I’ll stop them and just say.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: as soon as you have a diagnosis and some scans, and you can come back to me, or your doctor can share them with me if you’re okay with that.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and what’s going on? I’m super happy to offer you, but until then

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Libby Hinsley: II mean, I can’t guess. Yeah, I know right, it could just be that you sit too much, and you need to move more. Maybe you do have bulging discs, or maybe I don’t know until you see somebody else. Yeah. And one of the things that is hard to know is how much you don’t know. It’s really hard. And and really, what ends up happening is that the more we learn, the more we get to appreciate how much we don’t know.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and and it’s sort of that whole thing. And so

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Libby Hinsley: I like this phrase. This is called mind the gap, and we all have a gap between what we know now and what we could know, what is even knowable about the body, you know. And we will. Co, you know, cross that gap over our lifetimes, but there’s always going to be a gap, and we should be mindful of it, and just be ready to say I don’t know. And the the body is a mystery. There’s so much that

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Libby Hinsley: just I, you know it isn’t. It’s not explainable mechanically, you know, and because we’re often trying to explain things from like mechanical perspective in the body. And our experience of these bodies is not just mechanical.

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Libby Hinsley: It’s so complex. And so it just really gets us into some, you know, muddy waters when we do try to put labels on people and diagnose them. So I think the better approach is, you know. Observe, bodies, be curious. A. And then, as you build rapport with people over time, have your ears open to what they might share with you.

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Libby Hinsley: but they’re going to be fine, you know. A lot of people get really concerned about hypermobility. And yes, we talked about how sometimes people dislocate their joints, especially their shoulder. Not everyone does, you know. And.

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Libby Hinsley: I’d be more concerned about someone with a history of dislocation. But other than that they’re at risk for more sprains and strains, aches and pains. You know, it’s usually not gonna be something that’s really very serious. And for the most part.

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Libby Hinsley: they’re gonna be okay. But if every time they practice yoga, they feel worse. That’s important information. That means we need to modify something. We need to change something. Either this isn’t the right practice for them, or we need to do it differently right? And for the person with a symptomatic hypermobility that usually means

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Libby Hinsley: containing the range.

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Libby Hinsley: Just stop not going as far and moving more slowly, within which you know in Yan Yoga, you’ve got that covered because you’re just. It’s very slow and mindful, and not really a moving dynamic practice. So, but slow, mindful, attentive, and limit the range of motion and work on being able to sense

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Libby Hinsley: stuff going on in the body before you get to end range. One of the things I haven’t mentioned about the changes in collagen in this hypermobile body is that our connective tissues are full of those mechano receptors, those nerve endings, that sense mechanical information. They tell your brain about the position of your joints, and about movement and compression and tension, and what’s going on.

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Libby Hinsley: and they’re harder to stimulate in a body whose connective tissues are floppier cause they don’t get under tension as easily right. It’s like they get under tension way out at end range. Finally, the brain gets some information about what’s going on. Finally, they feel something.

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Libby Hinsley: So we have to work on. or we. It would benefit us, I should say, to work on tuning into more subtle sensations that occur before we get way out to end range. And that’s where, again, I think, really can shine

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Libby Hinsley: is helping people kind of be in their inner sensations and understand them a little bit better and interpret them a little bit better.

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Libby Hinsley: So we have this prepoceptive deficit. But we also have an interceptive sensitivity. And so we’re not very good at interpreting interceptive information. It can be overwhelming which is where Yen really shines. And for the listener, if you’re like. I don’t know what interception is. We can briefly, I’ll just very briefly

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Nyk Danu Yoga: give a lay description of it. But I did a whole episode on that. I will link it. So interception to just simple terms is an awareness of what is happening inside of you.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: That would be fair. Yeah. And one of the things that you can do as a yin teacher. If you have a student that you are worried about, as far as hypermobility is, encourage them

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Nyk Danu Yoga: to. First of all, back off. Let’s try. I always say 50 to 60% of your full range.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: simply because a type personalities are probably still gonna do 70. But if you tell your students, 78 types are gonna do 100. So I’m like, let’s back that off.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And I will always say.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you know, doing less in this practice is actually more. What is more important is, can you get curious about what is happening inside of you? And so if you’re listening to this, and you’re a teacher.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: this is where you need to. Well, first of all, I think it comes from having your own practice. because it’s hard to explain to students things they might notice about their inner landscape if you don’t spend time swimming around in your inner landscape, so I would say.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: practice practice to your teacher. And then can you use words, examples, descriptors, to give those students who you think might be at risk of pushing too far

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Nyk Danu Yoga: other things that they can observe other than full range of motion sensation.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: One of the analogies

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Nyk Danu Yoga: that I often use as sort of like any one has read or seen. Harry Potter.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: you know there’s the brick wall that they get to run through. Well, imagine that that brick wall is not magic, or you can’t just run through it. There’s a couple of ways that you can approach a yin practice

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Nyk Danu Yoga: if there’s a brick wall there, and imagine there is a secret opening.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: But you’re not magic, so you can’t just run at it. You could throw your body against that brick wall repeatedly until you find that opening and you would eventually find it. But you’d be pretty tattered and bruised and frustrated.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: or you can step back from the brick wall and get super curious.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and really examine all of the bricks, and see if you can see a pattern or an opening, and kind of nerd out in that way. And then you might actually find that opening. And I always use this analogy of you know, if you’re going right to your full range before you’ve had a chance to investigate.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: What does the very beginning of this feel? How do I feel a minute in how do I feel with 50% sensation.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: If you’re not doing that, it’s the equivalent of just slamming yourself up against that brick wall, and then wondering why you’re suffering and so there’s so many opportunities. If, as teachers, we can get skillful with our language that you can invite them to notice other things, and

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Nyk Danu Yoga: even if interception is difficult, which it is, I think, for everybody, but especially like you said for this population. You know you can start with. Can you notice the air on your skin.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Can you notice the feeling of your leg on the ground? Is there sensation there like just giving them hints as to what else they could be observing in their practice other than

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Libby Hinsley: full range of motion. Yeah, yeah, sensation. Yeah, it’s, I mean, it’s absolutely you’re right. It’s and that is such useful practice for these people. It’s it’s really powerful. It’s doing a lot less, but it is serving them so much more in terms of their brains, ability to map their body, understand what’s going on their body. That’s what we need.

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Libby Hinsley: And the other thing I just want to say about

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Libby Hinsley: hypermobility. We kind of touched on this a little bit. There tends to be a bit of a fragility narrative about hypermobility

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Libby Hinsley: that sometimes is actually warranted, but usually not, you know, and the because we see such a wide variety of what it looks like to be hyper mobile, or to have a hypermobility syndrome, and some people are very unstable, and have, you know, using mobility aids and really significantly impaired by this condition and others not as much physically. But maybe they have debilitating Gi issues, or whatever is just so much variety.

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Libby Hinsley: But here’s what we know about

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Libby Hinsley: the Bendy body at end range. It is more prone to injury, and it is going to be more prone to injury at end ranges. It’s going to be more prone to sprains and strains and dislocations at those ranges. However, we also know

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Libby Hinsley: that despite its differences in collagen and all of that it is adaptable.

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Libby Hinsley: It’s an adaptable body that, given the right stimulus, will adapt will will mount a response, and and what we know about tissues in the body, bone, tissue, connective tissue, all the same, is that they respond according to the loads presented to them.

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Libby Hinsley: So there’s a kind of a story about like over stretching in this fear about over stretching, and again yes.

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Libby Hinsley: hanging out at end range passively is not a great idea. It’s where we’re gonna have trouble. It’s where we’re gonna get irritated. So we’re gonna get injured. However, putting stress on our tissues is exactly what we need to do. We just need to do it at end range.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: So, dear, dear teachers, listening.

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Libby Hinsley: Dudion, teachers.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: if you are under the assumption whether you’re a yin teacher or just a teacher listening to this, who hasn’t done yin training yet.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: that your students are at n range of motion in yin. Please go take another yin training.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: because I have never, whether that’s been Paul or Bernie, or any of the teachers, have never in my life if I heard any Yin trainers say that your students should be going to N range of motion, if anything, they’re saying the opposite.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Actually, okay, that’s really that makes me so glad to know that. You know, I haven’t been in any yin realms in so many years that I don’t. I don’t know what’s kind of floating around. But no, I’m not saying that people aren’t teaching yin classes and saying that again. This is where dear teacher, if you’re hearing this, and you’re like, Oh, shit! That’s me!

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I’ve done that. Then, just, you know, don’t feel called out, feel called in, and maybe time for some more study, especially if you’re teaching in without any actual formal Yin training.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: because what can happen is we can take all our baggage from our young forms of Yoga, and just bring them right into teaching. Yin, if we haven’t taken any training with a qualified teacher. And just think, yin, Yoga is just like regular yoga with longer holes, and that is so. Not the case. There’s so much nuance I love that I love that approach, and

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Libby Hinsley: You know, II feel like I’ve heard maybe people talking about yin as a really great opportunity to load connective tissues to put them under tension so that they can adapt and become stronger, and that may there may be something to that. But I guess I would say

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Libby Hinsley: I mean, there is something to do that anytime we put tissues under tension. They theoretically become stronger and better able to withstand tension. But what the Bendy body needs.

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Libby Hinsley: in my view, in my humble opinion, is loading at mid ranges that is actually far. far heavier than what you’re going to get in a yen yoga pose. Yeah, we need we need a lot of of loading in training. Yes, because that’s tension, too. Right? The strength of really heavy muscle contraction to pick up something really heavy. That’s tension. But it’s happening at a different range. And it’s the magnitude is huge. And that’s the kind of input

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Libby Hinsley: that’s gonna stimulate tissue adaptations in this person circles, and more so with one particular teacher, trainer than others.

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That’s never something I focus on in my class because I don’t

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Nyk Danu Yoga: know the the ins and outs of each individual students. Personal biology enough to know

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Nyk Danu Yoga: is is me even addressing that wise or unwise. You know I’m much more interested in their inner experience. Their nervous system, you know. Can they work with their mind? You know, it’s like

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Libby Hinsley: I got a good personal trainer. I’ll recommend exactly. I think that is a brilliant approach, because yes, stressing tissues good is Yen Yoga the best place to do it. Probably not like. Let’s get under some serious loads over there with a trainer, and over here in Yoga, let’s just get the nuggets out of this that we really don’t get anywhere else, which is all the stuff you’re talking about, the nervous system regulation skills, the intro receptive accuracy skills these things are.

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Libby Hinsley: I can’t overstate their importance, for you know, for humans period. But even that the hypermobile person that’s what they’re gonna get

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Libby Hinsley: and most benefit from, I think in a Yoga practice.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: do you think there’s a connection between being hypermobile and being what we call a type.

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Libby Hinsley: I kinda do. It’s I’ve it’s just a totally unscientific observation on my part, but I have

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Libby Hinsley: notice that, and I will usually use humor to address that, because I can see that happening sometimes in my classes where people think the goal is to get to their foot with their hands, and I’m you know, encourage them over and over again to back off, you know. Yeah, there tends to be like an over achieving element

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Libby Hinsley: like high intelligence, basically being associated with hypermobility and

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Libby Hinsley: you know, I mean, we know that people with hypermobility are more likely to have kind of neuro divergent super powers. Honestly, either. Autism spectrum adhd, kind of brains that are like superpowers in a way. Yes, it’s really interesting, like people with autism, spectrum disorder, and Adhd are at least 4 times more likely to be hyper, mobile.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Whoa.

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Libby Hinsley: okay, so I have.

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Libby Hinsley: I have one more box than in that again. You know, those aren’t things that show up on that like official test thing. It’s just something that we know. There’s research that’s demonstrating this. And there’s

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Libby Hinsley: high correlation there, and it is, and I don’t know that it’s really well understood. You know what that’s about other than interceptive sensitivity.

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Libby Hinsley: It tends to link some of these things together and potentially some differences in brain anatomy. So it’s fascinating stuff. But

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Libby Hinsley: but how did I get there. What were we talking about? Oh, I intelligence. Yes, yes, yes, so I do observe that too definitely. And and a lot of times there are people who have been overachieving for, say, a few decades, and they literally hit a wall, and their health completely falls apart. Yep.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: because I often joke with my students that I’m a recovering a type personality. Actually, I say, recovered

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Nyk Danu Yoga: cause II really do feel that way now, like II don’t know there was something in my life at 1 point that just happened where I was like.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Huh!

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I don’t need to be this way, actually. And you know. Sometimes these things are slow, sometimes they’re like, there’s like an Aha moment. But I but I do think because II am a former a type that it’s. It’s easy for me to kind of use humor to bring some levity and some lightness, you know, and I’ll always say, like enlightenment is not when you touch your toes and promise you when you get your hands around your leg in this way. That doesn’t mean that suddenly you get gold stars. So like I’ll just keep bringing it up. And II would encourage the teachers listening. If you notice that

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Libby Hinsley: sort of white knuckling it happening in your yin classes

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Nyk Danu Yoga: just keep

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Nyk Danu Yoga: talking about it until they soften. And I’m only once

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Nyk Danu Yoga: did I actually have to go up to a student

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Nyk Danu Yoga: individually, because I had, you know I had set it to the whole group, and I had said it again, and then I had said, and if you’re now you’re thinking. Gee, Nick, keep saying this. Could she be talking to me? It could be. I’m talking to you. And it still wasn’t landing, and so II just went over to the woman and whispered in her ear.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: what would happen? If you gave yourself, permission to do less and that was night and day. All of the sudden everything softened.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and she actually relaxed

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and cause I just knew A. She was potentially risking injury because she was pushing herself so hard. And B. She was definitely not gonna like you and Yoga, she was not gonna leave that room and be like, oh, yin is awesome, you know. And so I just thought, if I can, just I don’t know. Sometimes we have an instinct, and I whispered that to her, and she completely softened, and she afterwards came up and thanked me, and said how much she enjoyed the class. And so, teachers, if you keep seeing it, just

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Nyk Danu Yoga: just keep talking to it. Whether you think they’re hyper, mobile, or not, nobody needs to be pushing themselves to 100 or even 70 in their in practice. It’s not necessary. I feel like.

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Libby Hinsley: somehow, Yoga, for so many people has become just another format, for, like

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Libby Hinsley: you know, self, I don’t know, beating themselves up and trying to make themselves better or more pure, or some version of better. And I don’t know it’s like, and it’s really it’s really damaging and so I think that

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Libby Hinsley: where Yoga has the most offer is exactly in helping people come to a place where they can accept themselves as they are exactly as they are not, you know, expect themselves to be perfect, but give themselves permission to be supported, to relax, to just

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Libby Hinsley: to be totally imperfect humans. That’s what we all are, you know, and no amount of Yoga practice is gonna fix that. That’s how it is, you know no amount of yoga. That practice is gonna like guarantee that you go home, and you’re just like a better partner or a better parent, or you’re just nicer, or you don’t get cancer, or you don’t get sick like that’s just it’s just human stuff, you know.

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Libby Hinsley: So I really love that approach to just having this be a gentle, accepting space for people to come into. It’s hard to find those spaces. We don’t have many of them.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Maybe, as we begin to slowly circle back around

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Nyk Danu Yoga: are there any tips that you would give specifically to the style of yin to teachers

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Nyk Danu Yoga: who either may or may not know if somebody in their room. I think if somebody’s come up to you and said, they have ellers, Danos, it’s so much simpler, actually, because you can just be like like I did with my student where it’s like you get all the props. We’re gonna just support everything so that you can be here. But you’re not putting yourself at risk. But we may not know.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and so are there just some kind of general themes, maybe, that we could be intentional about when we’re creating our classes in case of somebody that

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Libby Hinsley: might need that support. Yeah, I mean, I really like the limiting the range of motion and encouraging subtlety

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Libby Hinsley: in a sensation. And you know dialogging, especially if someone

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Libby Hinsley: S. Says, like, I can’t feel anything until I get way out here at the very end range. Well, in that case, can we bring a tiny bit of resistance to the stretch, and I don’t know if that would.

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Libby Hinsley: you know, have a place in a yin Yoga practice. But can we resist flopping into it? Just a tiny bit? Bring a tiny bit of muscle contraction, because when we do that

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Libby Hinsley: away from our end range we get a sensory hit. We get input sensory in our sensory system, and it helps us feel our body so that can be a really useful tool. And it can just be a hair, you know, of a little pull back.

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Libby Hinsley: and all of a sudden boom, the brain knows what’s happening in the body, cause it’s under, because now our tissues are under tension sooner, and that’s what we want. This is a body that lacks tension because it would probably get exhausting. But you could probably coach that at the beginning, even just to sort of encourage them to back off and plant that seed. And then

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Nyk Danu Yoga: again, teachers don’t forget there’s a lot more to observe other than physical sensation in the body like, can they observe their mind? Can they feel the air on their skin? You know. Ca, there’s so much in again, practice that doesn’t have to be sensation

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Libby Hinsley: definitely. And the other thing is when we’re, you know, helping students investigate with curiosity. What is the right kind of practice for them, and what modifications might be needed is to really encourage an honest reflection and honest study of your response to a practice.

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Libby Hinsley: I have seen so much resistance to honestly reporting how you actually feel after your practice.

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Libby Hinsley: because the story is so strong that more Yoga is supposed to feel better. I’m supposed to feel better when I practice, but so many people actually don’t, and

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Libby Hinsley: They might just assume, instead of saying, You know, if there’s something about this, it isn’t right for me. What they typically go to is, you know what I’m not working hard enough, or I’m doing it wrong, and I just need to do it better. And then it’ll work for me the way that it supposed to. And so I think, really given people permission to be very honest about

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Libby Hinsley: their own experience during and after. For, you know, couple of days after, because it’s that study of our response that will guide how we proceed in the future. But if we’re not being honest about it, we’re not going to get anywhere, and I see it so many times.

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Libby Hinsley: Oh, yeah, you know the practice feels great, but yet I still have this chronic thing that flares up kind of every day after I practice, and it’s actually not getting better. You know, I see that a lot with students with their neck. Specifically, they think that this chronic tension they have from working at a desk all day that if they just stretch deeper it’s gonna fix that. And I always like, let’s back that up

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Libby Hinsley: and go get a massage, please. You know Yoga has its gifts, and you know, and I’ll often joke and say, you know, more isn’t better. It’s just more

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Libby Hinsley: yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I think that is a piece that I see missing sometimes. It’s just, you know, telling people cause they may just need to be told repeatedly.

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Libby Hinsley: This is just a practice. It doesn’t mean anything except what it means to you, the practitioner. Not today, exactly. It’s not like there’s no expectation about how it’s supposed to feel for you. It is simply a tool for you to investigate you and your own experience, and you have to do that honestly, or else you’re not gonna get anywhere in terms of your relationship with yourself. And that’s what Yoga’s most interested in. So

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Libby Hinsley: I think, as a teacher

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Nyk Danu Yoga: encouraging that. Maybe you know, just mentioning that at the end of the class that you know

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Nyk Danu Yoga: what I do at the beginning of classes I do. We do a check in, and then a group, Hello! And people can say how they’re doing. But then, at the end of class, I get them to check in again. And I say, and this just for you to know, but like, how are you doing now? And so with folks it might be nice even to say and and notice how you are tomorrow and how you are the next day.

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Libby Hinsley: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s really encouraging. Even more interception. Right? Yes, and that there’s not a right or wrong answer to it, you know it doesn’t mean anything. It’s like, I remember a student saying to me once who was anxious at the start of class, and at the end she shared. I’m still anxious. And I was like.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Okay, then that’s good noticing. Yeah, I was like

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Nyk Danu Yoga: good on you like, you know, it’s like Yoga is not a magic pill that you take in all your life. Worries. Go away brilliant.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: So I would love to. I wrap up with some rapid fire questions. That’s okay, and then I’ll give you a we’ll do a little where everybody can find you on the interwebs, and what they’re

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Nyk Danu Yoga: how they can work with you. Okay.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: coffee or tea.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Oh, gosh! Both! I drink both every day. Me, too, I’m like, well, it depends tea, first coffee in the afternoon. That’s how I do it. Favorite ice cream flavor, whether that’s dairy or non dairy.

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Libby Hinsley: Oh, I’m gonna go with coffee, flavor, ice cream.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Nice? One thing. People often get wrong about me

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Nyk Danu Yoga: that my last name is pronounced kindly, which which listeners. I may have mispronounced in the intro that’s funny. Do you have a pop culture vice.

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Libby Hinsley: show or

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Libby Hinsley: podcast or something that you just like can’t help but binge on, you know I used to. I used to binge on Grey’s anatomy. I don’t so much anymore. And then I binged on Ted lasso. But now it’s over.

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Libby Hinsley: Okay. So we need a new one for you. We do. Yeah, I got nothing right now.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: When I’m not practicing Yoga, I am.

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Libby Hinsley: I am picking up heavy things and setting them back down. I’m really getting into the strength training. Awesome. Yeah.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: One weird fact about you.

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Libby Hinsley: Hmm! Oh, gosh! Feel like there’s so many weird things about me. Choose your favorite weird fact about me. So when I was a little kid, my parents, thought I, where where they were a little concerned, because when I started drawing pictures they were all upside down. That’s a little bit weird. So it was a bit of a weird kid. I also had a belly button. That was this big, and I had to have surgery on it.

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Libby Hinsley: It’s a Bendy thing, actually had an umbilical hernia. Yeah, anyway, those are things that just popped into my mind.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: What the world needs now is.

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Libby Hinsley: oh.

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Libby Hinsley: love. It’s just love, that’s all that we’re here for, that’s all we’re here. For

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Nyk Danu Yoga: one thing, I wish people knew about Yen Yoga.

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Libby Hinsley: Well, that is not about being at your end range

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Nyk Danu Yoga: love it?

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Nyk Danu Yoga: and then is there anything else that I forgot to ask you about that you would like to share or add other than, of course, we’re going to talk about all the good stuff that you offer.

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Libby Hinsley: I can’t think of anything right now. I think we covered a lot of ground in our conversation. Yeah, awesome.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: All right, my friend. Where can people find you?

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Libby Hinsley: You can find me at my website, Libbie hindslee.com. and from there you can get everywhere. But I’m also on Instagram at Libby, Hinesley, pt.

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Libby Hinsley: so those are the 2 best places to reach me. I’ve got an anatomy bytes program. That’s an online program for Yoga teachers. You want to get into anatomy. It’s a membership program. So you can find out about that through my website.

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Libby Hinsley: I’ve got a lot of hypermobility resources, too. So those are all out there and available on those 2 places. And unless I’m mistaken, do you not also have a new podcast oh, I do. I forgot about that. It’s called well, I’m in between seasons. So I gotta zebra talks. Did you say? Yeah, zebra talks. And so the zebra is kind of become a mascot of sorts for hypermobility syndromes.

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Libby Hinsley: because it’s a it’s a way to raise awareness to say, Hey, you know, these things aren’t that rare

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Libby Hinsley: anyway. So the zebra is relevant to the these conditions. So zebra talks. We have experts and other hypermobile people sharing their experiences. It’s been really fun.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Did you have Jill Miller on? I did. She was my first guest. That was the episode that I started with. I think, yeah.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: brilliant. Well, of course, I’ll put all of that in the show notes so that people can connect with you. I’d like to thank you so much for your time.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: I really feel like this topic is something that is so

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Nyk Danu Yoga: nuanced and so misunderstood.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: And I really think that this listening to this episode, especially for teachers or for people who are hyper, mobile, and have maybe some of these things in their head about what they can and can’t do with their bodies, I think, is going to be so helpful.

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Nyk Danu Yoga: Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for having me on. It’s been really fun to chat with you

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Nyk Danu Yoga: on the Podcaster and Youtube bye, for now.